Data Centers in rural areas.

[hedrok]

I guess I’m pretty late to the party…and, I don’t even like the computer world…but it seems politicians and their very secretive friends are grabbing up lots and lots of rural land, pushing rezoning, tax abatement, insisting on NDAs being signed by council people and representatives, plus being given low interest…or no interest…loans to develop the land for computer data centers. The companies that will primarily be behind these are the wealthiest in the world…think Google, Meta…The “data” that they’ll be processing will be virtually every tiny detail of our very lives…all to proceed extremely quickly to a digital world including a “cashless society!”
I’m really interested to hear what thinking, practical people think of this.

 

[Gator89]

Data centers & solar fields popping up everywhere.

 

[Johnnu2]

This sorta "stuff" has been going on since time began.
"Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely."

J.

 

[Dan in MI]

Multiple issues. (with, solar, wind, and data)
They always want farmland, that becomes useless when they are done.

They offer ridiculous money making it hard to say no, but the details reveal it’s not as lucrative as portrayed ( they tried to lease my land)

Huge water drain (data) open loop pollution, closed loop maybe not

Huge power drain (data) promises of lower rates, yet always seems to be the opposite.

 

[hedrok]

True…the electric costs skyrocket to the citizens of the area. That construction does more permanent damage than can possibly be a “positive” for years. Closed loop on the water would be possibly good…but the water comes back permanently polluted.
Sure seems like a few investors and large corporations make out VERY well…and the people who get to live with the data centers lose…big time.

 

[rugnelli]

Due to AI...

 

[s4s4u]

Information does not feed the masses. Corn and wheat and barley and oats feed the masses, whether through direct ingestion or via animal protein. We are doomed....

 

[themousethatroared]

They told everyone they could work from home a few years ago, because you could work from anywhere.

That's more true for everything on the internet than for human beings. A search engine or the ai answer crap could literally be anywhere on earth, because it is connected to the world by data and telephone lines. It doesn't have to be in a city, near people, near nice things, or even in America. They could put all this crap in Outer Mongolia, and no one would know or notice any difference.

They want to put this stuff in places with populations, so that after they hoard 99% of the electric power generation capacity, the power company can jack up the rates on the humans to pay to increase electric generating capacity, and pay for more juice for their big, vacant building full of computer equipment.

 

[Boxhead]

MAGA.

 

[Jack Ryan]

THey should be putting them in those derelict shopping malls and abandon industrial complexes.

 

[Jeepnik]

True…the electric costs skyrocket to the citizens of the area. That construction does more permanent damage than can possibly be a “positive” for years. Closed loop on the water would be possibly good…but the water comes back permanently polluted.
Sure seems like a few investors and large corporations make out VERY well…and the people who get to live with the data centers lose…big time.

Just how does the water in a closed loop system become "permanently polluted"? The chemical additives that are used for corrosion control and biological growth control are in such very low concentrations they are measured in either parts per million or parts per billion. And the fact that the water in the closed loop isn't supposed to get out and need to be replaced. By design it is a "closed" system.

Now lets talk about the cooling tower and the water that circulates through that. This is called "condenser water". It is an open loop. That means that by design some of the water is lost and is replaced with fresh water. There are three major sources of loss.
Evaporation, the water evaporates and thus removes heat from the system.
Drift, a certain amount of the water leaves the tower as droplets. Today's towers are designed to eliminate as much of this as possible.
Third is blow down. Condenser water starts to concentrate as part of the water is evaporated. And that raises the amount of total dissolved solids (think the white build up you see on your shower walls and doors). If left to become over concentrated it damages the system. So some water is intentionally drawn off and replaced with fresh water to maintain healthy levels.

As to contamination of the blow down water, it too is measured in parts per million and parts per billion. The water generally goes into the same sewer system as your toilet. Guess what, sanitation districts like this water because it has lower biological contamination that your toilet. And the volume helps dilute your toilet water and that helps out the sanitation plant.

And before some one mentions Erin Brokavich and hexavalent chrome, that stuff was outlawed decades ago. Oh, and regardless of what hollywood tells you, the connection between ground water containing hexavalent chrome and cancer is anecdotal not scientific.

 

[Watertender]

^^^^^ What Jeepnik said!!!

As to the taking over of good farmland, that is a problem. I think solar panels if used should be put on brownfield land. The property is already compromised and the panels can't hurt it any more than it is damaged.
Not far from me there was a 675MW coal fired power plant that was clean burning. In the zeal to eliminate fossil fuel this plant was torn down to be replaced by a 125MW solar panel farm. There is also a large AI center attached to the project. That's like taking away a full steak dinner and handing you a dry cheese sandwich and telling you how much better off you are.

 

[The A Team]

PJM announced an up to 60% rate hike to build out the power grid for future data centers. PJM would have doubled the generation half of the our power bills, this assumes PPL and the other local grid distribution operators would maintain current distribution rates.

The Virginia end of the grid is currently at 100% capacity due to data centers. Gov. Shapiro and other state governors filed a complaint with FERC and reached a settlement to cap rates for the near future.

But eventually rate increases will come and Microsoft’s project to rebuild TMI nuclear power plant for an AI data center will also need grid support to run at full capacity. The end of cheap electricity and a stable grid is near for my area. I am glad I have solar panels and a 1:1 net metering contract because I will be less screwed than most customers.

 

[hedrok]

Just how does the water in a closed loop system become "permanently polluted"? The chemical additives that are used for corrosion control and biological growth control are in such very low concentrations they are measured in either parts per million or parts per billion. And the fact that the water in the closed loop isn't supposed to get out and need to be replaced. By design it is a "closed" system.

Now lets talk about the cooling tower and the water that circulates through that. This is called "condenser water". It is an open loop. That means that by design some of the water is lost and is replaced with fresh water. There are three major sources of loss.
Evaporation, the water evaporates and thus removes heat from the system.
Drift, a certain amount of the water leaves the tower as droplets. Today's towers are designed to eliminate as much of this as possible.
Third is blow down. Condenser water starts to concentrate as part of the water is evaporated. And that raises the amount of total dissolved solids (think the white build up you see on your shower walls and doors). If left to become over concentrated it damages the system. So some water is intentionally drawn off and replaced with fresh water to maintain healthy levels.

As to contamination of the blow down water, it too is measured in parts per million and parts per billion. The water generally goes into the same sewer system as your toilet. Guess what, sanitation districts like this water because it has lower biological contamination that your toilet. And the volume helps dilute your toilet water and that helps out the sanitation plant.

And before some one mentions Erin Brokavich and hexavalent chrome, that stuff was outlawed decades ago. Oh, and regardless of what hollywood tells you, the connection between ground water containing hexavalent chrome and cancer is anecdotal not scientific

I have no doubt what you say is true. What I had understood was that there were chemicals added to cooling water to prevent it from attracting some type of electrical contamination. All of that is waaaay beyond my knowledge base. What is not beyond me is the overall construction damage to farmland and rural areas in places where cheap land simply means more profit for the investors/stockholders/corporations who put this all together at taxpayer expense. Corps such as Meta, Google, Amazon, etc. receiving 10-30 year tax abatements and general taxpayer funding. I’m not privy to details all over the country, but the general trend is dead wrong…regardless of the need to “be ahead of China” in developing AI. Long term effects and results need A LOT more scrutiny.
I’m pushing 81 pretty hard, so it won’t effect me…but my kids, grand kids, great-grandkids will have to live the boondoggles we build…good or, in this case, bad.

 

[Dan in MI]

Just how does the water in a closed loop system become "permanently polluted"?

What happens to the water when the data center is no longer useful? In theory it is cleaned up before it goes under, but we all know that always happens as designed. What about leaks? Mistakes by the maintenance crew, sabotage, plain old screw ups, or weather induced damage? Even the air exchange in the cooling towers, do any chemicals fly off in the evaporation cycle? How many PPM, PPB are truly safe? What's "safe" today maybe determined to be a toxic level in only a few years.

From my dealings with the attempted solar project. Cleanup is listed in the papers, BUT it isn't complete clean up. Soil requirements are only down to three feet, or something similarly small, (rusty memory) beyond that depth the landowner is on the hook. The same time they limit clean up depth they let you know they will be working about double that depth.

Again, as said above, use brown fields for all of it. Brown fields, parking lot roofs, manufacturing roofs etc. Data centers, since they can be anywhere, put them in non tillable areas. Wind, has it really been proven to be a net positive? (including clean up costs) I have climate issues with wind no one can answer.

Before I get a greenie attack. Solar farms on the west coast. It has been shown Pacific winds make it roughly to central U.S. and affects the ecosystems. (this is going to be kind of vague as I learned this many years ago) these areas rely on certain amounts of wind. Let's say that an area has received 4mph winds for eons and the local plants have adapted to that constant. Now with wind farms spinning away in CA the wind that makes it through is now only 2.5 or 3 MPH, or even less, what happens to the native flora and fauna over this change? Nothing? Plants species die? Animals that fed off of these species of plants? We don't know, and these type of studies are so rare we may never know until it's too late.

BTW- I apply this question to the wave generators of the coast too.

I am by no means treehugger, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't REALLY look at this from a future perspective.

 

[Ronbwolf]

While I have little doubt that Jeepnik has good information on this, problems still remain. The only "closed system," for water is earth itself. As a professor once commented upon seeing so many bottles of water sitting around the classroom, "You do know that all of the water on earth has been here forever, it has likely been through someone's, or something's kidneys at some time!" Even if the amount of water that escapes is measured in drops, so is rain, and eventually that becomes a torrent.

The other big problem is electricity. Let's say the data center developers do build and produce the total amount of electricity that they need. It will still have an effect on the area around it, and the infrastructure connecting it. As for rates increasing, competition should cause them to fall, but tax offsets will probably negate that, or, that will be the excuse anyway, rates always go up for "us."

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Whatever, it's gonna continue to happen so long as there's huge piles of money to be made by those who already have huge piles of money. :rolleyes:

 

[hedrok]

Whatever, it's gonna continue to happen so long as there's huge piles of money to be made by those who already have huge piles of money. :rolleyes:

Agreed. And, according to them…greed has its rewards regardless of the long term effects.

 

[Jeepnik]

I wasn't speaking to any issues but water. I was addressing the false information about contamination. And yes, as I said there are chemicals added to the system. But, and here is the important part. The chemical residuals in the system is almost nil. As I mentioned, measured in parts per million or billion depending on the additive.

But what do I know. I have only been working with water since 1971. The last twenty years as a full time water quality consultant. Everything from the absolute worst industrial waste water to ultra purified water for use in pharmaceutical manufacturing.

Oh, and the earth isn't a "closed loop". A closed loop infers that no water is lost, or created. Guess what, water is lost every day when the bond between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms break. On the other side every time you oxidize anything containing hydrogen atoms water is created. But it's much easier to create water than it is to destroy it.

 

[GunnyGene]

Agreed. And, according to them…greed has its rewards regardless of the long term effects.

Butbutbut, the benefits outweigh the harms. So I've been told. :unsure:

There's too much back and forth between a Utopian future, and Hell on Earth, about this to list it here, and it changes daily. Check the AI page on Google, and go from there.

https://news.google.com/topics/CAAqJggKIiBDQkFTRWdvSUwyMHZNRGRqTVhZU0FtVnVHZ0pWVXlnQVAB/sections/CAQiQ0NCQVNMQW9JTDIwdk1EZGpNWFlTQW1WdUdnSlZVeUlOQ0FRYUNRb0hMMjB2TUcxcmVpb0pFZ2N2YlM4d2JXdDZLQUEqKggAKiYICiIgQ0JBU0Vnb0lMMjB2TURkak1YWVNBbVZ1R2dKVlV5Z0FQAVAB?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

 

[Watertender]

The absolute truth about all of it is that someone who has money is going to get richer and the rest of the people will pay for it.
When the richest man in the world dies, the only difference between him and the poor bastard that the county has to bury is the size of the funeral.... They are both gone...

 

[hedrok]

Butbutbut, the benefits outweigh the harms. So I've been told. :unsure:

There's too much back and forth between a Utopian future, and Hell on Earth, about this to list it here, and it changes daily. Check the AI page on Google, and go from there.

https://news.google.com/topics/CAAqJggKIiBDQkFTRWdvSUwyMHZNRGRqTVhZU0FtVnVHZ0pWVXlnQVAB/sections/CAQiQ0NCQVNMQW9JTDIwdk1EZGpNWFlTQW1WdUdnSlZVeUlOQ0FRYUNRb0hMMjB2TUcxcmVpb0pFZ2N2YlM4d2JXdDZLQUEqKggAKiYICiIgQ0JBU0Vnb0lMMjB2TURkak1YWVNBbVZ1R2dKVlV5Z0FQAVAB?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

Not sure I’d believe Google, meta, or Amazon for an honest answer.
I’ll probably die totally confused.

 

[OuterBanks15]

Modern expansion will always come through and/or over top of.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Not sure I’d believe Google, meta, or Amazon for an honest answer.
I’ll probably die totally confused.

You won't go alone. ;)

 

[Yaworski]

I'm wondering what these data centers are all used for. Suddenly in the last couple of years, it's been "We need more data centers!"

 

[Taterman]

I'm wondering what these data centers are all used for. Suddenly in the last couple of years, it's been "We need more data centers!"

Gun owner registration info.

 

[GunnyGene]

Not sure I’d believe Google, meta, or Amazon for an honest answer.
I’ll probably die totally confused.

That page is just links to other news about this. Pretty even handed actually, with both anti AI/AGI, and pro-AI/AGI, including the competition between tech companies. Wouldn't kill you to check it out and make up your own mind. :)

 

[GunnyGene]

I'm wondering what these data centers are all used for. Suddenly in the last couple of years, it's been "We need more data centers!"

Everything.

 

[hedrok]

That page is just links to other news about this. Pretty even handed actually, with both anti AI/AGI, and pro-AI/AGI, including the competition between tech companies. Wouldn't kill you to check it out and make up your own mind. :)

I DO check things out as much as is reasonable…but I’m pretty sure you’ll find incredible quantities of highly technical information from supposedly honest and wise sources on both sides. Way too much for a mere mortal to actually understand.
Now, the REAL question comes: Who do you believe? Who’s interest do they serve?

 

[t-reg]

Why are we taking the hit (IE: higher electric prices, our taxes go up while they get breaks, etc) for the largest most lucrative businesses ever to put their monstrosities.
Seems like we are being very poorly represented.