big boy tractor q"

[bobski]

64 ford 4000 gas. new electronic ig. 2022.
only twice in my life did one die in the field. there it sits. lets get it home.
bushogging. ran for an hour no issues.
straight and level, no branches open field....its like someone turned off the ignition.
no putt, sputter, nothing.
gas is full.
starter just tries. no ignition. nanananana.
checked for pulled wires. nope.
checked battery terminals. nope.
coil wires intact.

what ya think?
coil die? its only 2 seasons old with 2 months use max.

 

[gnappi]

Dunno much about aftermarket EI and it's been a Looong time since then but I've had two aftermarket Ei one in a Corvette, another in a Datsun 240Z both crapped out and I put back the OEM parts.

I hope this is clear from my 1960's recollections

I'm no tractor guy but I'd check spark by pulling a plug and turning it over and watch / hear the spark at the plug, on a spare spark plug, or a timing light on a plug wire. If no spark test the coil remove the EI connections and check it if that's OK then your EI is likely bad.

If you got spark all around, check that the distributor is actually turning by pulling of the cap and watching it rotate. I've had 60's vintage 6 cyl 200's Mustangs have the drive gear on the bottom go bad.

Hope this helps.

 

[PRichardson87]

Dunno much about aftermarket EI and it's been a Looong time since then but I've had two aftermarket Ei one in a Corvette, another in a Datsun 240Z both crapped out and I put back the OEM parts.

I'm no tractor guy but I'd check spark by pulling a plug and turning it over and watch / hear the spark at the plug, on a spare spark plug, or a timing light on a plug wire. If no spark test the coil remove the EI connections and check it if that's OK then your EI is likely bad.

This is the best advice before anything else. Check for spark and work your way back.

 

[Colonialgirl]

Ever notice how many "modern" autos are sitting by the road side waiting for a tow ?
Give me an old fashion ignition WITH OUT all that "modern" electronic computerized bs.

 

[eveled]

It’s probably a safety switch somewhere out of adjustment dirty contacts etc.

 

[Mobuck]

If it didn't stumble and stutter like it ran out of gas, I'm voting for bad coil or condenser.
Never had this problem with Fords but long ago had a JD 4020 gas that did the same thing again and again. It would run until the things got hot and then just die--totally DEAD. 1/2 hour later it would start right up and run until it got hot again. It was either the coil or condensor--I replaced both and it was fixed.

 

[warren5421]

It sounds like the Coil is bad. Have an 8N that happened to. You could also have a broken wire that the gap has got big enough that the fire can't jump the gap. The covering arounf the wire may not be broken though the wire is broken. Running down electrical is almost as much fun as hitting your thumb with a hammer!!!

 

[gunzo]

Fuel & electricity. That's all for normal operation shy of severe mechanical failure.

Pull a plug, re-attach the wire, ground the plug & rotate the engine. If it sparks you a have a fuel delivery problem, if it don't, back chase the spark or voltage.

And I'm a good one to offer suggestions as I've had a 1969 JD gas in the shed for 2 months that won't start. It sparks so need to chase fuel delivery. But so sick of walking back & forth to the shed for additional tools, etc. Had a wrench in my hand since I was 10, & I'm tired, & tired of all of that.

Sometimes best to call somebody with experience that wants to make a fair buck & get it done.

 

[bobski]

this is electrical.
gas is good or it would have sputtered.

the coil is ei.
the distrubutor is ei.
the wires are ei rated.
its gotta be coil. if it was a wire, the others would run.
im going to try one more idea.
i have a coil to distrib wire in the shop. im gonna try changing it only.
whatever it is....its one common thing that effects all of it.
time to break out the chains just in case.

btw, i prefer the old systems too. we only put this in to try to nail down an issue 3 years ago.
it ended up being a worn distrib (shaft). so im stuck with the new ei system.

 

[DGW1949]

It's highly unlikely that it's a coil problem. Most of the time when"electronic ignitions" die suddenly, it's due to a faulty module....I don't know what brand of ignition you have converted it to, but if it doesn't use genuine Ford ignition components, I'd be digging through the trash for my old point set up...just sayin'.

DGW

 

[gunzo]

Ah! EI... & the problem "is" electric. The mystery is solved.

 

[Jeepnik]

If it died while running check the fuel pump.

 

[bobski]

no fuel pump. its gravity fed.

 

[protoolman]

Make sure the battery ground cable didn't come loose. Sounds basic but it happens. Or check terminals for corrosion. Then check coil distributor etc. Open ground will act just like you switched off the ignition when it jiggles loose. Battery might have run down and died too if the alternator or voltage regulator is bad. With check of battery voltage will rule those 2 out.

 

[bobski]

it sparks across the poles and the starter turns. it just doesnt fire at all.

 

[gnappi]

it sparks across the poles and the starter turns. it just doesnt fire at all.

Do you mean you saw spark at a spark plug and the distributor does rotate? These are the #1 issue to confirm.

 

[DGW1949]

Nope....it's the module...Find the Ford parts you took off and put them back in, install a new set of points and condenser, and you'll be able to get back to work....One is not doing themselves one bit of good when they start replacing factory parts with aftermarket stuff, no matter how much "better" new technology is supposed to be. It's all about reliability, and that ain't much of a concern to the Chinese...just sayin'.

DGW

 

[DGW1949]

Do you mean you saw spark at a spark plug and the distributor does rotate? These are the #1 issue to confirm.

Me thinks that "doesn't fire" means no spark at the plug...so no, it's (still) the module.

DGW

 

[bobski]

EI distrib requires a EI coil together.

battery poles sparked.
the way i understand it is...coil makes spark to distrib and discharges it when contact is made as rotor touches post for ea cyl.
no spark, bad coil, right?
will pop off distrib cap later on.

 

[DGW1949]

EI distrib requires a EI coil together.

battery poles sparked.
the way i understand it is...coil makes spark to distrib and discharges it when contact is made as rotor touches post for ea cyl.
no spark, bad coil, right?
will pop off distrib cap later on.

You are close, but not.....In the electronics world, the coil is nothing more or less than a transformer and as such, does not care what switches it on and off. It could be a set of points that does the switching, or some form of electronics, simply does not matter. Now, getting past that, a transformer alone does nothing but convert one type of current to another. In the case at hand, the coil (transformer is taking low voltage/high amperage DC current and converting it to high voltage/low amperage current. That is all it does, meaning that as yet, no spark has been created. Creating spark is done by electrically saturating a capacitor (AKA condenser), and then switching off current flow to the transformer's (coil) primary windings which in turn causes the high-tension electrical field to discharge through the transformer's secondary post which is connected to the spark plug via a n additional system of switches and components (AKA rotor, cap, plug wires).....The point here being that the electronic module component of the modern ignition system is where all the magic happens in order for the engine to run. It's main job is to act as a switch, kinda like the points used to do, but it does other stuff too. Problem is, unlike old-school point-ignition, the module is much more delicate and prone to failing, which is does with alarming frequency unless all of it's weaknesses and drawbacks are addressed by a competent engineer ....which is not the case with most aftermarket systems....I've been working on this stuff since 1965 and in all that time, I've seen exactly two coils that were bad. Comparing those two coils that proved bad to the dozens and dozens of modules I've had to replace purty-much tells me that it's the module. That I'm right about that may not matter anyway, because some systems are not configured in a manner that allows it to be replaced. Sometimes one has to replace the entire processor (AKA box)....MSD is famous for that, which is why every picture of the wiring inside of a NASCAR race car shows two separate MSD boxes. They do that so when (not if) the first one fails, it can be switched off in unison with the back-up box being switched on....so yeah, it's still the module. And yeah, if restoring reliability is the goal, the points that some misguided individual took out of that man's tractor still needs to find their way back in.

DGW

 

[Killer Bee]

post #7 might be of interest, post #17 made me giggle

https://www.trifive.com/threads/i-would-not-reccommend-pertronix.199722/
hope you find the culprit - good luck!

 

[Mobuck]

I chased a 'no fire' problem in my 8N for days. Sometimes it would run for a few minutes and die. Sometimes would not fire at all. Finally determined that the 'dust cover' inside/under the distributer cap had a slight crack that would 'open up' when engine got hot or just sitting in direct sunlight. New dust cover fixed it. Unfortunately, this was AFTER I'd replaced cap/rotor/coil/wires/plugs and spent ?? hours cussing the old girl. On the other hand, it purrs like a kitten after all the new parts.

 

[GasGuzzler]

DGW1949 must only be referring to oil bath tower style coils for points ignition.

I am not as old but I have been in the new car dealer service business for the same manufacturer for over 30 years and I cannot possibly count how many coils I have seen replaced. The older, the less likely to die for sure but anyone that as owned a 2.8/3.1/3.4L 60-degree GM V6 or a 3800 V6 or Northstar V8 has replaced a GM double poll waste spark ignition coil. My '04 Bonneville has only one of three original coils.

The 2007-2014 or so 3.6L V6 in the mid-size GM SUV's have failure prone coils, especially 2009 (for some odd reason). My '09 Saturn Vue (it's a Chevy with Saturn emblems) 3.6L has three of the original six coils and will get one replaced today once I see which one is bad this time.

I do agree swapping parts without testing makes me insane. When I get a customer car after Billy Bob has replaced everything, I first try to get them to pay me to put it all back like it was and start over. Too bad they take it to BB because the dealer costs too much then give up and come here anyway ... after they spent what money they had.

 

[blume357]

It's probably a safety switch somewhere out of adjustment dirty contacts etc.

Safety switch on a '64 tractor? I'm not an expert on tractors.... but.....

Back a zillion years ago I had a car that the cracked distributor cap was the problem....

 

[protoolman]

Yep a crack in the distributor cap drove me crazy more than once.

 

[blume357]

But doesn't that just throw off the timing and the engine will still at least fire up some? I'd vote on a bad coil or bad main coil wire or such.

 

[GasGuzzler]

I cracked distributor cap causes erratic spark, misfires, and backfires as the voltage takes the path of least resistance. That could be the proper pole, a pole for another cylinder, or somethng on the outside of the distributor.