apparently cursed by Ruger

[JStacy]

I bought a new 327 SP101 and took it to the Range today . I shot the federal 100sp load and indeed it is a hot load. The gun shot about 5" low at 25 yards so I tried to adjust the rear sight to bring the POI up to a six O clock hold !
When I adjusted the elevation screw the sight blade assemble did not move. On closer examination I found the rear sight did not have the return, tensioning, springs installed in the rear sight and it was just floppy loose.
Now this is the second new Ruger I have purchase in the last month and the second Ruger that has failed on the first trip to the range.
My other gun was a Ranch rifle in 300 BLK that the firing pin assemble flew out the back of the bolt and hit me in the chest.
I am VERY unhappy that I am the first line of quality control for the current Ruger products!

 

[WAYNO]

It's not just Ruger. It's American industry.

American industry thrives on less than skilled labor, trained to run a machine that does all the work. Push the product out as fast as possible, then repair the small percentage of products that missed a step. And I do think it's a small percentage. But when it happens to me, it doesn't matter it's a small percentage. To me, it's huge.

The final price to a customer is what sells products. All manufacturers have to compete with the other manufacturers that are also striving to market the least expensive product. There's only so many corners that can be cut, and still retain their customer base. I think all the manufacturers are close to that point now.

Personally, I would prefer to pay more for a quality product. Not everybody shares my preference. The bean counters have the final say.

WAYNO.

 

[wolfee]

wayno, the bean counters do get the last word. Curious how the handfull of companies where the the beancounters are told to be quiet and go away are thriving. Steinway pianos, Mercedes automobiles and Beluga caviar never have a recession--or an unprofitable year. Freedom Arms is usually backed up 6 months on new orders as well. I don't think those guys even have an accountant.

 

[JStacy]

Wayno I agree on the small percentage but two for two in the last month should get some ones attention.
Ruger used to have a section on their contact page to "speak to the president" or something like that. I always took it personally when my employees did not do a good job and I spent time on retaining and if they did not improve I spent my time on disciplinary actions or terminations !!
When no one is responsible for the outcome of their actions the employees do not care what they turn out. It is the fault of the Ruger president because ultimately he is responsible for the out comes. He can delegate authority but he cannot delegate responsibility !!

 

[WAYNO]

Wayno I agree on the small percentage but two for two in the last month should get some ones attention.
Ruger used to have a section on their contact page to "speak to the president" or something like that. I always took it personally when my employees did not do a good job and I spent time on retaining and if they did not improve I spent my time on disciplinary actions or terminations !!
When no one is responsible for the outcome of their actions the employees do not care what they turn out. It is the fault of the Ruger president because ultimately he is responsible for the out comes. He can delegate authority but he cannot delegate responsibility !!

I'm not downplaying your experiences by claiming a low percentage of failures. That was not my intention. When your brand new guns are broken, it doesn't matter if the failure rate is 1% or 50%. Your guns are still broken.

And the odds of one person receiving a higher than average failure rate? It does happen. I shoot a lot with Heliman from this forum. He and I often have the same guns, bought at the same time. There was a time where he had four failures (maybe more) of brand new Ruger products in a very short period of time. (The exact same guns that I owned performed perfectly.) Even a couple of the brand-new factory replacements sent to Heliman by Ruger failed immediately. Try telling him the failure rate is less than 1%.

When we make excuses that the failure rate is so low, it allows large companies to sense a mandate of bypassing QC.

I do hear you.

WAYNO.

 

[Fox Mike]

As a First Sergeant I hated when I heard two 'excuses'. "It ain't my job." and Close enough." Right after hearing either it became your job and close enough never cut it. It is a shame that industry cannot see things the same way.

 

[ADP3]

At least you could attempt to adjust your rear sight. On the GP100 I picked up today the slot in the elevation screw is so narrow that only a jewelers screwdriver will fit. Wasted a trip to the range over that one.

Best Regards,
ADP3

 

[Captain America]

This is all my fault, I'm 17 for 17 including 7 flawless brand new Rugers in the last 18 months. There's been several threads from guys who have nothing but issues but it seems the law of averages is on my side...I apologize.

 

[Heliman]

At a gun shop I frequent regularly there has been a fixed sight, 4 5/8" stainless Single Six Lipsey revolver tempting me. I finally decided to have the owner let me take a closer look. I was disappointed....

The right side of trigger guard had no evidence of even an attempt to remove the machine marks. Same rough appearance forward on the grip frame. I was prepared to purchase this revolver until the finish issues changed my mind.

I will say that the replacement AR556 I got functions flawlessly. :roll:

 

[Eliminator]

I bought an SP101 327 recently (January I think) that had to go back because one of the chambers exhibited sticky extraction. The cylinder was replaced and all is well - it's actually quite accurate and I enjoy it.
Not to pile on here, but the last three out of four new Ruger revolvers I've purchased needed to be returned - one of which was a Single Seven that went back three times before it was working properly. In all cases Ruger took care of the issues. However, I'm with Wayno in that I would pay a bit more for a product showing higher quality and increased attention to detail. I wouldn't expect Freedom Arms quality, just An uptick in quality and workmanship.

 

[JStacy]

"I'm not downplaying your experiences by claiming a low percentage of failures." Not taken that way at all just PO'ed that both of my new guns were lemons. I guess there is some value in buying used guns !! Some one else has already sent them back for their first repair ! ;->
BTW a hand load with 2400/110 grin XTP gave as much velocity as the fed 100sp and empties just slid out of the gun and it was more accurate.
I'm not going to use the SP101 as a fire breather just +P + 32 mag levels of reloads and cast bullets. --- as soon as I search through my parts box and find a rear sight tension spring.
I sent Ruger customer service a stern note and challenged them to share the information with the Ruger president. It will be interesting to see if I get a response ,especially with Rugers MK IV problem now !!

 

[sp327]

Three of the last six I bought had to go back. Two were not repairable and replaced. of the last six I bought, I still have two. I really wanted a 44 special, but the way my luck is with Ruger, I don't think I will buy any of their new guns for awhile. Of my friend's last three, one went back.

 

[wilburmay]

I feel your pain. Let's face it. The consumer is guality control now. Sometimes I think manufacturers don't care if they get repeat customers. Their is enough of us now if they get all of us once it's win win ! BS aside I'm still partial to older Ruger And S&W wheel guns. Hope everybody has a great day
Wilbur

 

[Hylander]

I have bought 3 new Ruger revolvers over several years.
All had to go back for repair.
However, all came back perfect or near perfect.

 

[Rclark]

Not just Ruger. On a whim, I picked up a Cimmeron .32-20/.32 Mag Lightning that has gone back. Seems the headspace was excessive and the cylinder gap was unacceptably large when I measured. Bore looked 'almost' like a smoothbore, and several of the bullets I shot went into the target sideways at 10Y. Try to shoot something at 25Y and beyond.... Well, it was doubtful I could even hit the side of a barn with it . Revolver looked nice though! :roll: .

As for my Rugers, I've only had to send back one that I can recall, my Mark II with a broken bolt. Most all have been tuned up off course, some throats corrected, and new grips and such. Minor stuff. Oh, forget, a Single-Seven, I wouldn't accept as the front sight was loose. It was replaced before I purchased.

 

[GeezerD]

"I'm not downplaying your experiences by claiming a low percentage of failures." Not taken that way at all just PO'ed that both of my new guns were lemons. I guess there is some value in buying used guns !! Some one else has already sent them back for their first repair ! ;->
BTW a hand load with 2400/110 grin XTP gave as much velocity as the fed 100sp and empties just slid out of the gun and it was more accurate.
I'm not going to use the SP101 as a fire breather just +P + 32 mag levels of reloads and cast bullets. --- as soon as I search through my parts box and find a rear sight tension spring.
I sent Ruger customer service a stern note and challenged them to share the information with the Ruger president. It will be interesting to see if I get a response ,especially with Rugers MK IV problem now !!

I have been a toolmaker and gunsmith for over 47 years. In the 70s and most of the 80s, very few new guns had to go back to the factory. That includes Ruger, S&W, Colt, Browning, Sig and most other name brands.

The problems seemed to start about the time that companies started to use " micro-managment " ,
"compartmentilization" and " statistical analisis ". It is much better for customers to hear that a company is trying to contain costs rather than increase profits. The easy way to do either one is to reduce the need for skilled labor and increase the amount of automation used.

The chances that any comments about quality control issues will reach the president, are pretty slim. That is somebody else's responsibility. People like Bill Ruger are very hard to come by these days. I am sure that if he heard about issues like these, he would personally see they wouldn't happen again. ------ GeezerD

 

[contender]

There was a link in one of my posts showing the inside of one of the Ruger factories. As a person who has a bit of machinist & welder background,,, I saw a few things.
Automated CNC machines,,, & streamlined assembly.
To mass produce anything,, the manufacturing industry has gone to that type of work. It saves money, time & increases production. Hand fitting & all have become an art that is being lost because CNC machines can work to very, very close tolerances.
But,, hand fitting takes skilled labor,, and many workers do not want to do that kind of work,,, AND be expected to make production quantities. The consumer demands on how many are wanted by the public demands quantity,, while serious gun folks want perfection.

I fully agree that a missing spring is a human error,, and should not happen. But,,, none of us are perfect,, 100% of the time,,, every day,, all day.

Tool marks,,, unless excessive,,, are going to happen when CNC machines do the work,, and no hand polishing is done on an assembly line. It's the way mass production is done nowadays. Freedom Arms does hand fitting & polishing,,, but not mass production. But, they are a small plant, (I've been there,) with only a small number of employees vs. Ruger with 1800 or so employees. Yes,,,, FA's are darn near perfect when they leave the plant. But as mentioned,, a 6 month waiting list & at least $2500 or more to get one.
The average guy can't afford that,,, so mass production,, with it's flaws & good points prevail.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Contender is right, "hand fitting takes skilled labor,, and many workers do not want to do that kind of work,,, AND be expected to make production quantities. The consumer demands on how many are wanted by the public demands quantity". It's NOT a Ruger problem. It's an America problem. I know people don't like to here immigrants will do jobs American won't do. BUT, it's true. If you have a company that requires drug free employees, (which is a good idea around machines and other kinds of equipment) you have a tough time even finding a qualified applicant that can pass a pizz test. QC is not the most difficult part of a company the size of Ruger, it's finding employees who can pass a drug test, who will show up on time, who do a FULL DAYS work, who cares about the end product. I have told people that I want to hire them but they would need to pass a drug test. Then I would go on to tell them, that I would give them a couple of weeks to get clean and take the test, BUT, if they failed they would never get another shot at working for that company. Invariably they would deny drug use and say they are ready right now only to fail the drug test. The fact that Ruger can turn out the number of firearms they do (more than any other company in America) is proof positive of their efforts to put out quality gun. The average company in this country is lucky to get 60% effort from their workers. The kids, and young people have no sense of work ethic, or willingness to put in 100% of the work in a full day. Even professional athletes practice is broken up by an hour so they can get to their cell phones to check out texts and make phone calls. It's pathetic, and getting worse. Go ahead and flame me if you don't like hearing the truth.

Lot's of immigrants come to America, work two or three jobs to make a living and save money and go start a business and as soon as they can expand to multiple businesses. Many work 14-18 hours a day for their success. They have a desire to make it. (Excluding many that are part of the religion of peace.) A high percentage of Americans would starve to death if they had to put any effort toward the hand outs they get from government. I say let them starve.

"Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: "Those unwilling to work will not get to eat." " 2 Thes 3:10 The pilgrims found the same thing when they came to the new country.

 

[Cholo]

:mrgreen:

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Should have known. :mrgreen: That is funny!!!

 

[Heliman]

Ty and Marlin, with respect to your excuses and reasoning regarding Ruger initial quality issues. What would Bill say? I'm betting there would be some permanent resolution. Perhaps new designs wouldn't be rushed to production without more R&D. I'm betting there would be more eyes on product quality before a piece would be shipped.
And what do you say to the first time buyer who saved hard earned money to step up to Ruger products only to have a functionally defective or poor fit and finish? When told to send it to Ruger to be fixed when they MAY not have had an issue with their Taurus or Charter Arms, do you think they will be a repeat customer? As I said before, I will not buy another Ruger without first being able to see it and check basic functionality in person. No matter what is said here, this is a recent problem getting worse that needs to be addressed. No more excuses.....

Dave

 

[GeezerD]

Contender is right, "hand fitting takes skilled labor,, and many workers do not want to do that kind of work,,, AND be expected to make production quantities. The consumer demands on how many are wanted by the public demands quantity". It's NOT a Ruger problem. It's an America problem. I know people don't like to here immigrants will do jobs American won't do. BUT, it's true. If you have a company that requires drug free employees, (which is a good idea around machines and other kinds of equipment) you have a tough time even finding a qualified applicant that can pass a pizz test. QC is not the most difficult part of a company the size of Ruger, it's finding employees who can pass a drug test, who will show up on time, who do a FULL DAYS work, who cares about the end product. I have told people that I want to hire them but they would need to pass a drug test. Then I would go on to tell them, that I would give them a couple of weeks to get clean and take the test, BUT, if they failed they would never get another shot at working for that company. Invariably they would deny drug use and say they are ready right now only to fail the drug test. The fact that Ruger can turn out the number of firearms they do (more than any other company in America) is proof positive of their efforts to put out quality gun. The average company in this country is lucky to get 60% effort from their workers. The kids, and young people have no sense of work ethic, or willingness to put in 100% of the work in a full day. Even professional athletes practice is broken up by an hour so they can get to their cell phones to check out texts and make phone calls. It's pathetic, and getting worse. Go ahead and flame me if you don't like hearing the truth.

Lot's of immigrants come to America, work two or three jobs to make a living and save money and go start a business and as soon as they can expand to multiple businesses. Many work 14-18 hours a day for their success. They have a desire to make it. (Excluding many that are part of the religion of peace.) A high percentage of Americans would starve to death if they had to put any effort toward the hand outs they get from government. I say let them starve.

"Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: "Those unwilling to work will not get to eat." " 2 Thes 3:10 The pilgrims found the same thing when they came to the new country.

You are right about addiction being a huge problem in America. And addiction comes in many forms. The obvious like drugs and alcohol and also money, power, control, sex, food, vanity, gambling, and others.

I have seen many in positions above the hourly workers with problem addictions. I think the issue is much more severe than just not being able to find workers that can pass a drug test. I say, " Let Them All Starve Too " ------------ GeezerD

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Dave, I know what you are saying and I hear you. I (of course) have no idea what Bill Ruger would do, but I strongly suspect that the Ruger production would be way down from where it is now. It's not been that many years since Ruger hit the 1 million production mark, which as you already know is a milestone amount gun manufactures. Taurus and C/A are a LONG WAY from those numbers. And now Ruger is producing 2.5 million firearms. These numbers are absolutely unheard of. I know it's frustrating, but very few manufactures of any kind (but most especially firarms) produce any thing in those kinds of quantities. I'm not positive what is considered an acceptable percentage in issues in any manufacturing even I phones but I suspect Ruger is lower than that. But with the numbers they produce it seems like a lot. Truth is even the vaunted "high quality" Smith and Wesson are have the same production problems as Ruger. I'd be hard pressed to find any product actually produced by humans that don't have the same issues. Automobiles are highly computerized construction products and still have issues. Even if those issues are from parts suppliers it's hard to produce anything 100%. Freedom Arms production is WAY LESS, and still they don't have a transfer bar to keep a dropped gun from going off. Granted two different things but in my mind, the fact that the ability to do that is readily available and they haven't upgraded is a flaw. I've had several over the years and won't have another, until that changes.

After some thought, I would add, that not only do I believe that Bill Ruger would dramatically drop the production of Ruger firearms, but would also dramatically drop the number of models that are available through Ruger. If you think it takes a long time to bring a model to market now, you will be very disappointed that you may never see the model you now have because of the production and design issues that have been added. Forget the flat tops, forget 41 magnums they can't produce enough any more, forget the 480's, forget the Alaskans, forget the hunter models, forget the Type 3 and type 4 Ruger semi auto 22's, forget about the LC9, the SR series, the RAR's and probably a lot more.

Going back to Freedom Arms, they are not a production company for all practical purposes, they are a custom gun company. That's what Ruger would need to be, to have the quality control people are looking for. Lots of people would lose their jobs, (they couldn't do a good enough job anyway. Are we only going to hold Ruger to those standards?

 

[Armybrat]

Y'all make me feel very fortunate. Since I started buying new Rugers 58 years ago, only one of the dozen guns had a slight problem - the ejector housing screw on my 1959 Single Six worked loose the first week of plinking. A tiny dab of model airplane glue was all it took and hasn't done it since.
Bought a New Vaquero Talo Edition earlier this year that has near perfect fit & finish out of the box, but I don't know if they take extra care with those semi "custom" types.

 

[Dave P.]

They can use trained monkeys to build the guns, I don't care!
But they ought to have a human with half a functioning
brain and at least one working eyeball inspect them before shipment.
People seem to complain about modern CNC machining, but they can
create highly precise parts at a rate that "old school" machinists would
not believe.
At some level the company just doesn't care, it's cheaper ( short term )
to fix vs. inspect. It's a shame because their designs and material
selections seem pretty solid to build a lasting gun. They just need
better production processes to bring up the assembly quality.
Dave

 

[gunzo]

Way too many manufactured goods available from right here in the US that prove the usual excuses for Ruger's poor quality control are just that, EXCUSES.

In the US there are manufactures that produce;
-Products at a competitive price point
-Products rated high in initial quality
-Products rated high in overall customer satisfaction
-Products that are made in high quantities

AND...Products possessing all of the above, at the same time!

It's not that in can be done, it is done, on a regular basis. That is simple proof & not my opinion.

 

[Heliman]

They can use trained monkeys to build the guns, I don't care!
But they ought to have a human with half a functioning
brain and at least one working eyeball inspect them before shipment.
People seem to complain about modern CNC machining, but they can
create highly precise parts at a rate that "old school" machinists would
not believe.
At some level the company just doesn't care, it's cheaper ( short term )
to fix vs. inspect. It's a shame because their designs and material
selections seem pretty solid to build a lasting gun. They just need
better production processes to bring up the assembly quality.
Dave

That is the point. Don't let the junk out the door. I got lucky the last 3 Rugers. But I still have zip confidence in product quality based on MY past experience.

 

[Heliman]

Dave, I know what you are saying and I hear you. I (of course) have no idea what Bill Ruger would do, but I strongly suspect that the Ruger production would be way down from where it is now. It's not been that many years since Ruger hit the 1 million production mark, which as you already know is a milestone amount gun manufactures. Taurus and C/A are a LONG WAY from those numbers. And now Ruger is producing 2.5 million firearms. These numbers are absolutely unheard of. I know it's frustrating, but very few manufactures of any kind (but most especially firarms) produce any thing in those kinds of quantities. I'm not positive what is considered an acceptable percentage in issues in any manufacturing even I phones but I suspect Ruger is lower than that. But with the numbers they produce it seems like a lot. Truth is even the vaunted "high quality" Smith and Wesson are have the same production problems as Ruger. I'd be hard pressed to find any product actually produced by humans that don't have the same issues. Automobiles are highly computerized construction products and still have issues. Even if those issues are from parts suppliers it's hard to produce anything 100%. Freedom Arms production is WAY LESS, and still they don't have a transfer bar to keep a dropped gun from going off. Granted two different things but in my mind, the fact that the ability to do that is readily available and they haven't upgraded is a flaw. I've had several over the years and won't have another, until that changes.

After some thought, I would add, that not only do I believe that Bill Ruger would dramatically drop the production of Ruger firearms, but would also dramatically drop the number of models that are available through Ruger. If you think it takes a long time to bring a model to market now, you will be very disappointed that you may never see the model you now have because of the production and design issues that have been added. Forget the flat tops, forget 41 magnums they can't produce enough any more, forget the 480's, forget the Alaskans, forget the hunter models, forget the Type 3 and type 4 Ruger semi auto 22's, forget about the LC9, the SR series, the RAR's and probably a lot more.

Going back to Freedom Arms, they are not a production company for all practical purposes, they are a custom gun company. That's what Ruger would need to be, to have the quality control people are looking for. Lots of people would lose their jobs, (they couldn't do a good enough job anyway. Are we only going to hold Ruger to those standards?

Marlin, I don't care about Freedom Arms or Smith and Wesson. We are talking about Ruger. They have quality problems that are not being addressed. That is the point. I am not a brand loyalist. I just liked the way Rugers addressed my interests. Lately they are missing the mark far to often from my experience.

Dave

 

[Fox Mike]

They can use trained monkeys to build the guns, I don't care!
But they ought to have a human with half a functioning
brain and at least one working eyeball inspect them before shipment.
People seem to complain about modern CNC machining, but they can
create highly precise parts at a rate that "old school" machinists would
not believe.
At some level the company just doesn't care, it's cheaper ( short term )
to fix vs. inspect. It's a shame because their designs and material
selections seem pretty solid to build a lasting gun. They just need
better production processes to bring up the assembly quality.
Dave

I would think it better to build it correctly the first time then to do it over later.

 

[JStacy]

'Go ahead and flame me if you don't like hearing the truth" --Bear Paw. I don't want to flame you I want to shake your hand.
At one time I had 500 employees working for me and I wanted to initiate a novel raise plan . Each section would be given a gross of 5% of the salaries for their department and the raise amount would be competitive . If you were late for work more than 2% of the time, minus 1 %, if you evaluation by your supervisor was less than 80% minus 1% , if you had traceable quality control errors of more than 1 per quarter minus 1% .The money saved would be pooled and evenly distributed among the co workers who had none of the above issues. I wrote a simple software program on excel to calculate raises so all would be as fair as I could make it. HR would not let me initiate the system because they thought it might discriminate against some one. Yep PO'ed me because all I wanted to do was give raises based on job performance and HR could not understand that!
This thread should be required reading for Ruger executives !!
Rant off Ruger is sending me some return springs , no further questions asked.