Ammo - Breaking the Law?

[mohavesam]

So I try to make a big gun show about once a year. It is a 2-3 hr drive to the Crossroads show in PHX, one of the (usually) best and biggest shows within reasonable travel. So last weekend I saw many many ammo sellers with tables full of non-labeled or home-printed bagged ammunition. Of course manufacturing loaded ammunition for sale requires a type 06 or 07 FFL (and a boatload of insurance) in these United States, of which I asked each seller in due course.
Of some 12-14 tables , only ONE seller did show his FFL to me (framed for display)!!!
Q: How stupid can someone be to man a table selling a product like homemade ammunition without understanding the (potential) criminal implications???

Now there are always rumors of ATFE trolls prowling this show for violations, and I don't doubt it. I pass up the deals on ammo makers who cannot show an FFL, as I don't want to entangle myself in some federal investigation as Murphy might have it.

Anyone have an opinion otherwise?
Note: this is NOT about the quality or lack thereof of homemade ammo, some can be very good indeed, others cannot even identify the load data but all have very shiny products!

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Our guns shows are generally crawling with (B)ATF(E) guys, and depending on the venue, there may be a goodly representation from the local Sheriff's Dept. as well. I can't remember the last time I saw unlabeled, bagged ammo for sale at one of them. Maybe it's still out there and I've just missed it, but I wouldn't buy it even if the ATF didn't exist. That old rule about not shooting someone else's reloads comes to mind...

Rick C

 

[mohavesam]

I understand hard times and good people trying to earn their way with "what they know", but with this administration's anti-Bill of Rights attitude and over-zealous enforcement, I just wonder how far some people push their luck...

In AZ, nunchuks and other implements are listed as Cl.1 Misdemeanors, yet I see these things out for sale also. Implication in a criminal activity is just something I want to avoid, sort of an "intelligence test" ?

 

[gramps]

Maybe those selling the ammo are batf?
gramps

 

[Rick Courtright]

Maybe those selling the ammo are batf?

Hi,

Could be... I've heard of agents trying to arrange illegal buys at some of our shows, especially "parking lot deals." They've busted a few guys, too. Probably serves the dummies right--agree with it or not, the law's the law and these guys take it seriously--but it's still disconcerting to think they're out there "entrapping" folks, as some might construe it!

Rick C

 

[GunnyGene]

I don't care. If I must bend a law to ensure my freedom I will do so without hesitation. The issue of the quality of such ammo is of course a consideration that I take into account.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Implication in a criminal activity is just something I want to avoid, sort of an "intelligence test" ?

I'd agree with that. I'd also agree that IMHO it's not a particularly good idea to buy and use "Brand X" ammo.

I do wonder, though, if the purchase of such ammo is illegal. Selling it most assuredly is, but the purchase? I dunno. Just a thought.

:?

 

[Rick Courtright]

I don't care. If I must bend a law to ensure my freedom I will do so without hesitation.

Hi,

Mr. Ralph W. Emerson (to his friend H.D. Thoreau as he sat in jail for breaking a law he disagreed with): "Henry, what are you doing IN there?"

Mr. Thoreau: "Ralph, what are you doing OUT there?"

The issue of civil disobedience is always an option, with the caveat that one must also be willing to pay the price for exercising it. If going to jail to ensure one's freedom is acceptable to him or her, then they're free to bend or break the law all they wish. And more power to 'em as they do! Some folks prefer different company than what one might meet while looking thru bars to see the sun, or consider their time too valuable to do so.

The guy sitting inside isn't gonna teach the system anything as he sings "I fought the law and the law won," but he may provide the catalyst for some guy on the outside with a law degree to convince a judge or legislator to do so... it's a cooperative effort. Witness our civil rights movement of the '50s and '60s. A lot of folks had to be willing to get locked up before the laws were changed, but it was they who remained on the outside who actually made those changes. Call it a symbiotic relationship?

Which side's right or wrong? Methinks the person who can answer that definitively has a far better mind than the thousands who've argued both sides over the years!

Rick C

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I think it's a matter of definition of terms . . .

If you believe adhering to the laws no matter what to be "wrong" . . . you might be "right".

If you believe that violating laws with which you disagree to be "right" . . . you might be "wrong".

And as mentioned, ya gotta be willing to pay the piper for yer dance.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html#ammo-reloading

Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

A: Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

 

[Xsales]

As I understand, as stated, when it becomes a business then an FFL is required

If a guy has a hobby of reselling, even if that may be 20,000 rounds, it is a personal hobby

However, for myself I am not interested in firing another man's work UNLESS I know him personally and KNOW they know ballistics - too much a gamble for me
Cases blow for "hot loads", junk casings splitting, dud powder used ........

 

[Ale-8(1)]

. . . and accidental double-charging.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[pharmer]

About 20 years ago I found out about "gun show reloads." Bought 100 rds .223 (in a zip loc) for the tidy sum of $15. Looked nice and the seller was a regular. Naturally when I went to load up, I found not a single round would chamber. Not in a Zastava bolt action, a Colt Hbar, nor a mini-14. Tumbled it before reloading but resizing must have been too time consuming. At least it was less expensive than many other of life's lessons. Joe

 

[rugerjunkie]

The way it reads to me with the line "in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use." means if you are selling you better have the license. You dont need to make your livelihood doing it in order for the license to be required with the word "profit" in there too. Sell some off for a few bucks and you might want reciepts handy to prove you just sold them at your cost.

Im in the group that will pass no matter how cheap it is. It'll be factory fodder or stuff Ive loaded myself. I know how the factory and my stuff works...

 

[RugerHound]

Do I buy shade-tree ammo? Nope... Never have, never will.

Do I think it should be illegal to sell home loaded ammo? Nope... It's perfectly 'legal' to sell all kinds of junk that will hurt you or even kill you... Just as long as the state or feds have a hand in the transaction. They don't give a damn about safety - The gubmint just wants their cut. An FFL licence doesn't make anyone one bit safer.

 

[DA_TriggR4Ruger]

A lot of mentality I see here, is something I'm very glad our forefathers avoided when they founded this county.

Ok let's go to the king and ask written permission to become an independent nation. I'm sure it was tried, I'm sure it failed. The results yielded, are... well, history, and self evident.

 

[powder smoke]

Personally I would never buy loose reloaded ammo from any source or any price.
The question of legal or not is not the reason I would not buy it, I need to know
it is safe to put down range That's my main concern.ps

 

[Mobuck]

How about this scenario? B_ _ _E sets up the table selling this "unlabeled" ammo (which turns out to be bulk packed commercial) with the intention of entrapping someone else doing the same at the next show. A few guys see the table and say "hey, those guys are doing it and making a good turn over, I'll do that next time". The agency needs to bust as many people as possible to maintain funding and aren't overly concerned about how those busts happen.

 

[DGW1949]

We all know the risk involved with shooting someone else's reloaded ammo, but that was not the question being posed by the OP.

As far as the "legalities" go, I kinda look at like this;
One either has a Right, or one does not.
Privilages are not Rights.
GCA-68 is obviously a system of privilages which were expressly enacted to do away with my Rights relative to "keep and bear arms" (which I'm perty-sure meant loaded arms).
The BATFE is not only the enforcement arm for GCA-68, but it also gets to change those privilages as it goes along, with little to no congressional oversight, and with zero input from you and I as voters.

Now, I don't know about the next guy, but what all of that tells me is;
GCA-68 is unconstitutional and therefore unlawfull.
Any BATFE agent which enforces any part of GCA-68 is making himself a party to a crime.
I personaly feel no lawfull or moral obligation to either follow an unlawfull "law", or to allow a thug with a badge to impose his will on me.....so to me, the real question being posed is;

Is the presented scenerio worth taking a stand over, or not?...which is something that we each have to answer for ourselves.

DGW

 

[DA_TriggR4Ruger]

This is starting to touch on how I feel.

 

[mohavesam]

Good for all the guys taking a stand against the BATFE. When they let you have computer time in federal prison, please let us know how it all went for you!

Anyone here want to admit manufacturing & selling ammuntion without an FFL? Please go back to the OP, I'm curious. My point was the law is real, and yet so many people seem to be ignorant of it an make/sell large quantities in public, for income.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Is the presented scenerio worth taking a stand over, or not?...which is something that we each have to answer for ourselves.

Hi,

Exactly my point earlier.

Any time this type of conversation comes up, regardless of venue, there's a lot of bluff and bluster about "Bygawdthey'renotgonnamakemeobeythatlaw!" And then I wonder, "How many of these big talkers actually have an arrest record" for standing up against these evils, be they real or perceived? In other words, TRULY followed the spirit of their words as immortalized by our Founding Fathers when they pledged "Our lives, our fortunes, our sacred honor."

My bet is not many.

When push comes to shove, the risks of leaving our respective comfort zones are far greater than most of us are willing to take regardless of how we talk. And even if we do make the move and risk something, we've gotta weigh the long term benefit. I'd love to ask Clive Bundy how his proverbial 15 minutes of fame a year ago has changed the world...

Rick C

 

[wolfsong]

I'm not selling and I'm not buying. What someone else is doing is their business, so what difference does it make, to me?

I suppose, if I had a bunch of reloads that I no longer needed, I could disassemble them and sell the components separately.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Member WESHOOT2 used to talk about manufacturing custom ammo. I don't know the circumstances but I got the impression he got out of the business because of the legalities, or something like that.

 

[gtxmonte]

OK, has THIS question been asked. Were the guys you saw for SURE selling home loaded ammo that THEY loaded..........or just selling some bulk ammo they had in labeled bags. I know some guys around here were breaking down bricks, or ammo cans in individual bags.

I also find it interesting some peoples take on "loaded" ammo. Many swear they would never use ANYONES reloads.........really. So you are more confident that every round of factory ammo is 100% up to snuff. That would be a serious stretch. Now while I wouldn't buy loaded ammo from just anybody who had it, I have no problem shooting someone else's loads if I know that individual or their background.

 

[sebtool]

I just finished reading John Ross' "Unintended Consequences", which will give you a little insight into the OP's intended question. It is a fictional account, based on the gun control acts of 1934, 1968 and 1986, as well as several well documented actions by the BATFE. Scary stuff, when the Feds get involved. The approximately 900 pages will definitely make you think about where you stand!

 

[Selena]

Caveat Emptor, I wouldn't buy reloaded ammunition from anybody other than my idiot brother. To begin with my brother is the Godfather of my children and claims Donna is just as I was as a child. That alone tells me he is going to use the utmost care on any reloads he gives me. Someone else? They aren't familiar with my weapons and I'm not familiar with their sense of craft. For all I know they are watching TV while they are charging cases.

 

[opos]

Some years ago I bought some 38 special "factory remanufactured" ammo..it was from a licensed and insured reloading firm that was very much in presence at local gun shows (I don't attend any shows any more so have no idea if they are still around)...The ammo looked fine...was all of the same commercial head stamp....I bought 500 rounds in a bulk pack canister. It was absolute manure. I did not have a chronograph to check velocity but it was apparent the loads were all over the place...off a rest the accuracy and repeatablily was terrible and I had one squib in the bunch..

That was the first and last time for any reloads of any kind from anyone else. I have trusted myself and my judgement to do several kinds of things over the years that I would not trust others to do...and reloading is one of those. Yes I can make a mistake but if I do the onus is strictly on me...I know when I'm tired or there is conflict..put things away and do it later...I fear that others might not have either the inclination nor the incentive to back away when things are not going right.

I don't buy...I don't sell....I don't loan or supply and I don't take any reloads from anyone. If I get a squib or a heavy load from a "manufacturer" I have recourse...big or small..but "Joe Blow" at some gun show is gone and doesn't care.

 

[mohavesam]

Its really not about the quality nor liability of the ammo itself...
But everyone understand s that, right?

 

[DGW1949]

Its really not about the quality nor liability of the ammo itself...
But everyone understand s that, right?

Apparently not, but don't take it personal.
Threads like this one almost never stay on track. :lol: :lol: :lol: .

DGW