American Gen 2, .223

[Joey]

Bought one for my nephew, decided he needed a bolt action. Put a Weaver 4-24 scope on it, went to the range today. Did barrel break-in with cheap ammo, then went to some of my reloads for my CZ. Sierra 68 gr HPBT MK, seated with 10k jump to the lands. They were too long for the mag, and pushed in a couple k on chambering. Does anyone know if Ruger bores their chamber shallow, or did I just get a one in a k? Or does CZ maybe cut chambers deeper. I know Savage has a ton of free bore on their chambers. I realize the American Gen 2 is a low price point rifle for Ruger. but this is a 1-8 twist, should be able to handle 77 gr, but will they seat too long? Guess I have my work, or rather fun, cut out for me on the bench!

 

[416_Taylor]

I have a Gen 1 in 223. Yes, a very short throat. Bought a throat reamer.

 

[Joey]

I have a Gen 1 in 223. Yes, a very short throat. Bought a throat reamer.

Guess that is in my future.... Thanks much for the info.

 

[Mobuck]

Did you actually fire the rounds that had the bullet jammed into the lands?

 

[XUSNORDIE]

What barrel contour American? If it's a sporter don't waste your time with handloads. Just shoot factory and deal with it as is. If it's a predator medium contour it may be worth your time to handload and try to tailor a load.

 

[Joey]

Did you actually fire the rounds that had the bullet jammed into the lands?

Two rounds, figured out what was going on.

 

[Joey]

What barrel contour American? If it's a sporter don't waste your time with handloads. Just shoot factory and deal with it as is. If it's a predator medium contour it may be worth your time to handload and try to tailor a load.

Its a 20" fluted, looks like a light varmint. He wants to do some coyote hunting this fall. I will develop a load using a 77 gr hunting bullet. Has an AR type mag, probably why the 68 gr rounds are a bit long and why the throat is so shallow.

 

[Mobuck]

Another possibly off the meter question: Why the decision to use 77 grain bullets for 'coyote hunting'?
1: generally speaking, 77 grain bullets aren't the best choice for hunting--a 50-55 grain bullet offers much better terminal performance
2: 77 grain bullets are s l o w compared to 50-55 grainers
3: the primary advantage of 68-77 grain bullets is resistance to wind drift at extreme ranges which are less likely while actually hunting
4: the above wind drift resistance is offset by the increased bullet drop at longer (unkown) ranges which may lead to more misses than wind drift
5: at 'typical' (200-300 yard) ranges, the long, heavy bullets offer NO real advantages while severely reducing terminal performance IMHO
Not trying to be snarky--just offering some personal advice.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

Its a 20" fluted, looks like a light varmint. He wants to do some coyote hunting this fall. I will develop a load using a 77 gr hunting bullet. Has an AR type mag, probably why the 68 gr rounds are a bit long and why the throat is so shallow.

The Predator models have medium contour. My 204 is extremely accurate. If you want the best accuracy ditch the stock and get one with a harder fore end, I put on a Bell & Carlson. Made a world of difference. Also ditched the tiny bolt handle for one easy to use with gloves while fox/yote hunting.

 

[Joey]

Another possibly off the meter question: Why the decision to use 77 grain bullets for 'coyote hunting'?
1: generally speaking, 77 grain bullets aren't the best choice for hunting--a 50-55 grain bullet offers much better terminal performance
2: 77 grain bullets are s l o w compared to 50-55 grainers
3: the primary advantage of 68-77 grain bullets is resistance to wind drift at extreme ranges which are less likely while actually hunting
4: the above wind drift resistance is offset by the increased bullet drop at longer (unkown) ranges which may lead to more misses than wind drift
5: at 'typical' (200-300 yard) ranges, the long, heavy bullets offer NO real advantages while severely reducing terminal performance IMHO
Not trying to be snarky--just offering some personal advice.

Thanks for the advice. Where I live, a 100 yard shot is about the longest you are likely to get. Just trying something different.

 

[Joey]

The Predator models have medium contour. My 204 is extremely accurate. If you want the best accuracy ditch the stock and get one with a harder fore end, I put on a Bell & Carlson. Made a world of difference. Also ditched the tiny bolt handle for one easy to use with gloves while fox/yote hunting.

Thanks for the info. I don't care for the stock either. May take your advice. But it will have to be on his dime!! I provided the platform, upgrades are up to him!

 

[Joey]

I broke out my load book and calipers. I reload to the ogive, not the listed cartridge length. OCL on as listed in the manual for the 69 gr HPBT is 2.260. The ocl on my reloads is 2.2785. If I load the to listed length, they will probably work in the magazine. A classic example of why you don't use reloads designed for one rifle in another rifle. I have 2 6.5 CM, a Browning x bolt and a custom built. I bump shoulders and set case lengths by chamber msmts. My reloads for one don't work in the other, have to keep them separate. Been a few years since I loaded for .223, I will have to screw my head back on and get back into it,

 

[XUSNORDIE]

My favorite 223 REM pill for yotes was a 55gr Sierra BlitzKing. Most of my yotes were called and short to medium range. The 223 REM is a good choice but I ditched it for a 17Hornet when in areas both fox and yote came into the call close. 223 was tough on those little fox pelts. Otherwise I used the 204 with a 39gr Sierra Blitzking.

 

[Rumrunner]

I agree that 50 - 55 grain bullets are better for coyote in 223. No problem with my 50 grain V-Max reloads in my Gen II 223. Hope you find a good solution with yours. Mostly now I use my original American Predator in 243 for coyotes.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

I agree that 50 - 55 grain bullets are better for coyote in 223. No problem with my 50 grain V-Max reloads in my Gen II 223. Hope you find a good solution with yours. Mostly now I use my original American Predator in 243 for coyotes.

I found Vmax needed to be slowed down a bit on preds...too much splash. Great on varmints though....nice red mist.

 

[Mobuck]

"I found Vmax needed to be slowed down a bit on preds...too much splash."
Maybe if you're in an area where the fur has value but in the MidWest, we mostly want them DRT w/o concern for pelt damage. Last coyote I killed this spring was 300 yards running away--55 Vmax from a 22/250 opened it up like a chainsaw.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

55 Vmax from a 22/250 opened it up like a chainsaw

Yep its what the Vmax was made to do. It's a varmint round. Head shots on ground grizz can be a show. When I was stationed in Cali ranchers wanted the ground squirrels gone. I wish the Vmax was out then. Only choice at that time was Nosler Ballistic Tips and they were hard to come by at first. But Vmax is my choice on varmints. Sierra BK on larger preds. Hornady HP on smaller preds. Most of the kills were called in under 100 at night. But at times they do hang up and long pokes do present the need to calculate a shooting solution on two glowing red eyes. I'm not that smart anymore.

 

[Sam Summey]

In my experience, the cartridge OAL is 2.260". I shoot many 77 gr bullets in my AR Service Rifle with Wylde chamber. They are all loaded at the 2.260" which is the magazine limitation. At 300 yards the combination is capable of shooting possible scores on the standard MR63 target prone with a sling.
MR63 target scoring ring dimensions are as follows: X-Ring: 1.42 inches 10-Ring: 2.85 inches Nine-Ring: 5.85 inches

I suspect the chamber of the rifle is a .223 Remington chamber which was designed for a maximum 55 grain bullet. The throat on the .223 is short. It is a little perplexing that Ruger would have a 1:7 twist and chamber with a .223 Remington chamber. The Wylde reamer is a better choice, kind of a trade off between .223 Rem and NATO. The 5.56 NATO chamber has an extra long free bore. My Reminton 700 F-class rifle has a Wylde chamber too. It will shoot 20 of the 77 gr Nosler or Sierra BTHP into a half minute group over the 20 minute time limit.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

between .223 Rem and NATO

Uh oh.....I feel the 223 REM vs 5.56 debate possibly brewing up......standby!

"they are the same"
"556 is more powerful"
"223 has thinner walls and won't withstand 556 pressures"
"556 cant fit in a 223 chamber"
"556 will damage a 223 chamber"

 

[Joey]

Uh oh.....I feel the 223 REM vs 5.56 debate possibly brewing up......standby!

"they are the same"
"556 is more powerful"
"223 has thinner walls and won't withstand 556 pressures"
"556 cant fit in a 223 chamber"
"556 will damage a 223 chamber"

Heard/read'em all. Personally if barrel/action is not stamped 5.56, it gets feed .223 only.

 

[Mobuck]

Regardless of the 223/5.56 confusion, firing a heavy bullet load worked up for a different rifle and chamber goes against most recommendations especially if the bullet is jammed into the leade.

 

[Joey]

Regardless of the 223/5.56 confusion, firing a heavy bullet load worked up for a different rifle and chamber goes against most recommendations especially if the bullet is jammed into the leade.

I agree, and I definitely should have known better. I have some reloads , 55 gr fmj and sp, loaded for my Cz FS, after 2 rounds of the 69 gr, we went to them. They are hunting rounds loaded to manual specs, or basically commercial rounds. We finished out the day with them. I am going to get some chamber/throat msmts so I can tailor a load just for this rifle. I know it isn't a 1/8 moa target rifle, but I enjoy it, so what the hey.

 

[Sam Summey]

Uh oh.....I feel the 223 REM vs 5.56 debate possibly brewing up......standby!

"they are the same"
"556 is more powerful"
"223 has thinner walls and won't withstand 556 pressures"
"556 cant fit in a 223 chamber"
"556 will damage a 223 chamber"

The NATO chamber is the same as the Remington except the lead into the rifling. Brass is brass, some is thicker than others thus less volume which will drive the pressures up. I don't recommend mixing headstamps if consistency/accuracy past 100 yards is an issue. 90 percent of the AR shooters are just shooting at the dirt anyway, past a 100 yard shot is considered "long range" by most. Unless it is a reactive target, 22 caliber holes are impossible to see at 300 yards and beyond, unless a luminous reflector is behind the target.

 

[Joey]

The NATO chamber is the same as the Remington except the lead into the rifling. Brass is brass, some is thicker than others thus less volume which will drive the pressures up. I don't recommend mixing headstamps if consistency/accuracy past 100 yards is an issue. 90 percent of the AR shooters are just shooting at the dirt anyway, past a 100 yard shot is considered "long range" by most. Unless it is a reactive target, 22 caliber holes are impossible to see at 300 yards and beyond, unless a luminous reflector is behind the target.

Probably going to stir up a hornets nest, but what the.... I am a RSO at our local range. 75% of the firearms brought on the range are AR platforms. 80% are new shooters who have just learned which end of the rifle is which. Most spend a good part of their time working on the rifle, fidgeting with the scope, etc. I keep a VERY close eye on these types. However, a well put together AR in the hands of a shooter is very accurate to 500 yards, with the right load. I also run the 300 yard shoot each month. We have guys that shoot 1/2 moa and smaller on a regular basis. A good shooter can take a bad firearm and score with it. A bad shooter can't take a good firearm and hit with it. Just my observations.