600- yards M-4

[M118LR]

NEC's could cross over many Ratings, many different ratings could be source ratings for NEC's. Yet There is NO NEC for Secondary USMC MOS 8541. The course of training was merely a prerequisite for some Navy NEC's. But this is all ancient history. Most MOS's and NEC's have changed or been modified, many Ratings have been desolved or incorporated into other Ratings. I don't believe that any of the Classified 53XX NEC's or the USMC MOS 8541 exist Nowadays? I'm not even current on what source ratings relate to what NEC's Nowadays, guess you would have to speak with a PN/YN.

Edit NC nowadays.

 

[GSP7]

woof

 

[Titus]

if they think of trying it then its definable possible but the hiccups might be more than we know could just turn out to be another p365. hopefully not.

 

[Mobuck]

"36 inch diameter at 880 yards? 12 inch vital zone."
By my calculations, one round out of three would hit that 12" vital zone. Maybe I miscalculated. :unsure:

 

[s4s4u]

"36 inch diameter at 880 yards? 12 inch vital zone."
By my calculations, one round out of three would hit that 12" vital zone. Maybe I miscalculated. :unsure:

Do you really think a typical grunt could put one round in that vital zone out of 20, or more, at 1/2 mile

Maybe we need to clone Jerry Miculek to man the triggers :unsure:

Waiting for the 1-20x LPVO to appear :rolleyes:

 

[M118LR]

Sounds more like 1 in 9 to me. Roughly 12 percent. But I'm sure a statistal math wizard will come along and both our percentages will be wrong.

 

[blume357]

"Do you really think a typical grunt could put one round in that vital zone out of 20, or more, at 1/2 mile"

I'm pretty sure my father could back in 1950.... they issued him an '03 Springfield with a scope on it.

Being trained in more than one discipline makes sense to me....

my father who transferred from the Navy to the Marines was pretty good at tying knots and it seems I remember him telling me how he knew how to find a high pressure steam leak.

 

[M118LR]

A 880 yard shot with a 30-06 or 308 Win is a much different proposition than the same shot with 22 caliber rounds. Especially in the days before palm pilot ballistic programs got you roughly in the ballpark. But wind calls, and the percentage based on your SWAG, the less the percentage ( lower inches) the better the SWAG.

For those not accustomed to SWAG.
Semi Wild A$$ Guess.

Edit, this is a can you not a should you debate. I have performed many things on paper targets with a 98 percent rate or better that should never even be attempted actually afield. JMHO.

 

[The.Tumbleweed]

A 880 yard shot with a 30-06 or 308 Win is a much different proposition than the same shot with 22 caliber rounds. Especially in the days before palm pilot ballistic programs got you roughly in the ballpark. But wind calls, and the percentage based on your SWAG, the less the percentage ( lower inches) the better the SWAG.

For those not accustomed to SWAG.
Semi Wild A$$ Guess.

Edit, this is a can you not a should you debate. I have performed many things on paper targets with a 98 percent rate or better that should never even be attempted actually afield. JMHO.

Yep. Give it your best guess, and send it.

 

[M118LR]

Don't forget that Southeast Asians should be 66 inches tall and the rest of the World has folks 72 inches tall when you size them up on you Mildot Reticle. Best factor that into your unknown distance equation. I can provide photos, but why?

I'm a sucker for a photo. A simple 400 yard solution. Why?

 

[The.Tumbleweed]

Don't forget that Southeast Asians should be 66 inches tall and the rest of the World has folks 72 inches tall when you size them up on you Mildot Reticle. Best factor that into your unknown distance equation. I can provide photos, but why?

That doesn't work so good with peep sights, which is what the M14 came with, as well as the M16.

 

[M118LR]

What aperture did you use for 880 yard shots on your M16?
How much elevation did you require for those National Match irons on a M1 Garand or M-14. Talk about a SWAG without a Mildot Reticle?
Well at least in semiautomatic you could walk your mistakes home quicker than you could with a bolt.

 

[The.Tumbleweed]

What aperture did you use for 880 yard shots on your M16?
How much elevation did you require for those National Match irons on a Grand or M-14. Talk about a SWAG without a Mildot Reticle?

I don't know. I used whatever was on it from the armorer.

I have a Springfield Armory M1A with match barrel/sights, but I still couldn't tell you what aperture it's using, without looking at the manual.

I haven't been able to get out much since all the health issues started.

For the record, I never was a fan of the M16, or its variants in .22 calibers.

 

[M118LR]

Now for that little known fact, ( since we have been conversing in Squidly Diddly) the Navy only has 2 M-14 's. the M-14 NM is the second and the M-25 is distinct third. So all the Army Variants of the M-14 ain't part of my jargon. But things actually improved once Crane took over the research. JMHO YMMV.

But since that Ordguy chimed in, it's probably best to use PSR (Precision Scoped Rifle) for one shot stops at 880 yards or more as long as you can qualify Expert annually at the 1k KD l Line JMHO YMMV. But Uncle Sam may take away your issue rifle if you fail to qualify Expert Annually.

Edit still awaiting that XUSNORDIE response.

 

[The.Tumbleweed]

Now for that little known fact, ( since we have been conversing in Squidly Diddly) the Navy only has 2 M-14 's. the M-14 NM is the second and the M-25 is distinct third. So all the Army Variants of the M-14 ain't part of my jargon. But things actually improved once Crane took over the research. JMHO YMMV.

But since that Ordguy chimed in, it's probably best to use PSR (Precision Scoped Rifle) for one shot stops at 880 yards or more as long as you can qualify Expert annually at the 1k KD l Line JMHO YMMV.

Edit still awaiting that XUSNORDIE response.

I can't speak to Crane. I know nothing about them.

I can say I could easily hit the door, but not the keyhole, with what I had/have. Minute of man/deer is good enough for me, at a reasonable range.

Stretching the range can be fun, when you have the time to enjoy it. 600 yards is good for me, but it's not unheard of for folks to hit 800/1000 yards with an M14. I just don't have the practice, or cause, to try my hand at those ranges.

 

[usmc69]

Looks like they are trying to make a super M-4.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...s-to-double-the-m4-s-effective-range-44828497

The Marines shoot the M4 at 200,300 & 500 Yards on the Known Distance Course (KD Course) for medals qualification. Adding another 100 yards will just mean a few more clicks of elevation to the rear sight or scope. I fired the M16A1 and M16A2 on the Kd Course. Taught both of my Grandsons to shoot and they both shot the A4 for their KD Course and fired Expert. It is doable.

 

[The.Tumbleweed]

"Do you really think a typical grunt could put one round in that vital zone out of 20, or more, at 1/2 mile"

I'm pretty sure my father could back in 1950.... they issued him an '03 Springfield with a scope on it.

Being trained in more than one discipline makes sense to me....

my father who transferred from the Navy to the Marines was pretty good at tying knots and it seems I remember him telling me how he knew how to find a high pressure steam leak.

I transferred from the Navy to the Army.
Being a Pit Snipe, the Army really wasn't sure which MOS I fit in best, but ended with being a 31C (which apparently doesn't exist anymore).

 

[M118LR]

The Marines shoot the M4 at 200,300 & 500 Yards on the Known Distance Course (KD Course) for medals qualification. Adding another 100 yards will just mean a few more clicks of elevation to the rear sight or scope.

Isn't 880 yards 330 yards past the 500 KD Line? You may need to add a lot more clicks than just those for another 100 yards?

But if they can make the New Wonder Round actually work it should shoot a bit flatter than the Old 5.56.

 

[txramfan]

Back in the early 50s, before I was born, my dad took moms dad to a 1000 yard range. My grandfather wasn't a gun guy, my dad started hand loading 22-250 as a wildcat.
My grandfather rang the steel on his first shot , Winchester Model 70, 22-250 .
Luck ya, gun ammo scope set up correctly yep.
Not a trained rifle man, no CMP training , just a 60+ year old machinist out for a day at a range.

 

[usmc69]

Looks like they are trying to make a super M-4.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...s-to-double-the-m4-s-effective-range-44828497

Isn't 880 yards 330 yards past the 500 KD Line? You may need to add a lot more clicks than just those for another 100 yards?

But if they can make the New Wonder Round actually work it should shoot a bit flatter than the Old 5.56.

In the original article I do not see a reference to 880 yards. I see a reference to 300 yards and doubling to 600 yards. This said 880 yards may be a doable thing for a few shooters, but no for the run of the mill shooter. The 5.56MM will do some damage at that range, but not through and through wounds.

I am wondering about the proposed chamber pressure of 82,000 PSI. The M16 was originally 55,000 PSI and has since been upped to 62, 000 PSI. Just wondering if they are going to beef up the receiver to take te added pressure.

 

[Yaworski]

"is optimized for standard 5.56 NATO and tops out at a practical effective range of around 300 meters. That's fine for a lot of situations, but it leaves a hole on the modern battlefield where adversaries can engage from distances where the round simply runs out of steam. "

We had rifles that could reach out to 600 yards but "modern battles aren't fought at distances like that." Now we need them again. It is a truism that you will need whatever you decide that you don't need.

 

[krw]

"Do you really think a typical grunt could put one round in that vital zone out of 20, or more, at 1/2 mile"

I'm pretty sure my father could back in 1950.... they issued him an '03 Springfield with a scope on it.

Being trained in more than one discipline makes sense to me....

my father who transferred from the Navy to the Marines was pretty good at tying knots and it seems I remember him telling me how he knew how to find a high pressure steam leak.

Why don't you compare Apples to Apples and Oranges to Oranges. Topic is M4's. Does it matter what your Dad could do with a scoped 30-06??? In this thread , NO

 

[kmoore]

What aperture did you use for 880 yard shots on your M16?
How much elevation did you require for those National Match irons on a M1 Garand or M-14. Talk about a SWAG without a Mildot Reticle?
Well at least in semiautomatic you could walk your mistakes home quicker than you could with a bolt.

I can't remember the clicks but the black target ring was 36 inches, 10 ring 30 inches at 800 yd target. While spotting the shooter. The bullet trail went way above the target frame and disappeared into the black as it got close. A friend once did the time in flight of the bullet with his computer. As I recall 308, 168 bullet was about 2.5 seconds, 3006 168 bullet was closer to 2 seconds. This is from a sport I haven't done since the late 1998.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Do you really think a typical grunt could put one round in that vital zone out of 20, or more, at 1/2 mile

Maybe we need to clone Jerry Miculek to man the triggers :unsure:

Waiting for the 1-20x LPVO to appear :rolleyes:

This thing is being solicited by Naval SOCOM elements (read: SEAL), not the average GI Joe or Jane. I think that this is a mighty big ask, personally. 'We don't have any new technology or materials to offer, but we want that which is currently (most likely) impossible.' They intend to use such a short barrel, that I see that requirement as a huge handicap. And, 8,000 rounds barrel life with hypervelocity ammo? That doesn't seem likely; not with current barrel technology.

 

[usmc69]

 

[Fox Mike]

Years ago I fired the 1000 yard course at Quantico. 20' black 10 ring. You were given three shots to hit the target prior to competition. The actual competition line was diminished after the three shots. I was one of the 'better luck next time' shooters. Shooting a Match M-14. First shot... anybody's guess. Second shot...in the dirt in front of the target. Third shot...hit the wooden frame. Not nearly as easy as it sounds.

 

[Mobuck]

"Just wondering if they are going to beef up the receiver to take te added pressure."
The 'upper receiver' of an AR only holds the parts in alignment during cycling. Bolt is locked directly into the barrel extension.

 

[kmoore]

Isn't 880 yards 330 yards past the 500 KD Line? You may need to add a lot more clicks than just those for another 100 yards?

But if they can make the New Wonder Round actually work it should shoot a bit flatter than the Old 5.56.

In NM the ARs that I shot and others used bullets in the high 70s gr. like 77, I believe was mine. To get high scores at 600 yd. Forget the 55 and 62 grain bullets. Heck the 200 and 300 yd lines, I used 69 gr bullets. Those VLD bullets in the high 70s grain was a single load. The mags can't hold them. We used a sled adapter, that was a fixed cartridge guide in the mag top. That mag was then only used for slow, single shot fire. The GI light 55 and 62 grainers goes all over the place in wind at long range. I never used the AR at 800 yds.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

Well I see this thread developed into more comic relief compliments of our resident "world's most interesting man".

I will stand down from the silliness and just observe...... :ROFLMAO: