.454 Factory Ammo Jumpin' the Crimp

[revhigh]

I've NEVER had a crimp issue. Period.

flatgate

I'm with you Carl ... and if I DID have a crimp issue I'd damn sure do SOMETHING to resolve it ... not continue down the same path saying that I still had it ....

By the way ... I've also used lots of H110 and 4227 in full house loads and never had a bullet move with them either.

REV

 

[WESHOOT2]

Perhaps we have a different understanding of MAX loads?



FWIW, I have never loaded even a single 454 cartridge.

 

[revhigh]

Perhaps we have a different understanding of MAX loads?

FWIW, I have never loaded even a single 454 cartridge.

Could be ... when I speak of a 'max' load ... I'm referring to the maximum load that is listed in reloading manuals ... and I know that that varies from book to book.

I never worried much about fps ... I usually go with a stout load that is ALSO accurate. I know some people try to get the maximum fps out of every load they use (not saying you do weshoot2), and some go well over the max load data. I don't do that, although I DO have a chrono and usually use it for knowledge's sake.

I've reloaded thousands of 454 rounds ... mostly using 300 grain Hornady XTP mag bullets, but have also used bullets in the 250-260 range as well. I have absolutely NEVER had a bullet move in the case of any caliber ammo that I've shot ... EVER. I'd say I've reloaded easily between 100K and 200K rounds over the years ... maybe more.

In my full house loads ... I ALWAYS use a bullet with a good cannelure and put a firm roll crimp into the center of the cannelure or under the edge if using lead bullets, which I've begun using in 44 mags.

REV

 

[Lost Sheep]

Back in my 'day' I was working on a custom "Silver bullet" load for the 45 Colt (the load was not just a 'show' load, but was requested to meet an actual customer need), and the only "silver bullet" available was the 225g Silvertip.
My test platform was my 5.5" Redhawk; customer platform was a custom SA Ruger.

When trying to meet the customer's performance criteria, I was unable to secure those 225s in the case. Granted, the performance level was very high :shock: , but no conventional method secured those bullets (they are cannelured).
I first used my Redding Profile Crimp die(s).
No luck; crimp jump.
I tested with my LEE and Lyman and Dillon crimp dies; no luck.
I then moved to less conventional methods. I tried some custom 'tighter' crimp dies; I tried undersized sizers; I tried everything but adhesives (I never used adhesives due to my inability to confirm consistent bullet pull).
Then I went wacky, and tried sizers intended for smaller cartridges, until I was making guppy cases.
Even a 41 Magnum sizer. And a 41 AE. And a 400 CB. And a 10mm.
Nope.

When I 'slowed' the loads down I could maintain OAL, but pushed past sanity the creep continuously reared its unmanagable head.

My point for this story is simple: Certain loads launched from certain platforms will jump their crimp, and one cannot develop MAX loads for the 454 Casull using 2400.

Could it be that the brass' case mouth was a bit soft? It just suddenly occurred to me. I had not thought of it before, but maybe?

Lost Sheep

 

[WESHOOT2]

I tried Federal, Starline, Remington nickel and brass, and Winchester nickel and brass.
New; always new....

 

[softpoint]

I've had several 454's, 7.5 Redhawk Freedom arms, Alaskan. I finally sold the little Alaskan because I could never keep it from jumping crimp with maximum loads, whether it was light bullets or heavy. The light bullets don't have as much of the bullet in the case, but the heavy bullets have more weight to "stay put' when the gun recoils away from them.
There are other factors such as chamber dimensions that can also aggravate the situation, but a light gun and a hard kicking load is always a good recipe for "crimp crawling"

 

[rimrider]

Thanks guys for all the replies, thoughts, and advice.

Loaded up & shot several cylinders full of:
23.0 gr H110 under 335 gr Cast Performance WLNGC, new Starline brass.
Normal roll crimp in the cannelure.

No jump/creep, looked to be no movement at all...
Empties just 'fell' out of the cylinder.
Seems to be a fine load;
may step up another grain or three & check for creep there.

Still not sure what to make of the Magtechs.
No change in my 'technique'...
Guess I'll just shoot 'em up one or two at a time for the brass!

sb

 

[Lost Sheep]

Acid test.

Make (or get) 11 rounds.
Measure the length of one of them. Mark that one (mark the primer, or just remember which one it is).
Load that round into the revolver, plus 5 more.
Fire the five unmarked/unmeasured rounds
Take out the marked round and measure it
Load the revolver with the marked round and the remaining unfired 5 rounds.
Fire those five unmarked/unmeasured rounds
Take out the marked round and measure it again.

(Optionally, you could measure the marked round after every firing if you were so inclined)

The marked round has now been subjected to the forces of 10 recoils. A little creep in the first firing or two is forgivable. The could be simply "seating" the crimp into the shoulder of the crimping groove. Further advancing of the bullet in the case would be due to the crimp actually releasing the bullet. Releasing the bullet would be bad, very bad.

You could do 16 or 21 rounds to get 15 or 20 recoils on the bullet if you were so inclined. But I think two cylinders worth should be enough.

Good luck

Lost Sheep

 

[onthehunt]

I have several boxes of.454 Speer brass that I bought some time ago. It has a ring of adhesive just below the case mouth. Wish I knew what it was so I could buy some. It is gone with the first shot. Maybe more to crimp jumping than the crimp itself? Speer seems to think so.

 

[Lost Sheep]

I have several boxes of.454 Speer brass that I bought some time ago. It has a ring of adhesive just below the case mouth. Wish I knew what it was so I could buy some. It is gone with the first shot. Maybe more to crimp jumping than the crimp itself? Speer seems to think so.

I would ask Speer if they would tell you at least, what KIND of adhesive it is. They might tell you.

If you wish to apply your own, I would start with an easily cleaned-up adhesive and figure out a REALLY GOOD way to regulate exactly how much is applied.

Then seat bullets in a few (uncharged, unprimed) cases with your normal crimp and with your adhesive only and with adhesive and crimp. Then pull all the bullets. Estimate the effort required to pull the bullets, so you will have an idea of just how much the adhesive is adding to the bullet retention (that your powder charge will have to overcome).

Congratulations, you are on your way.

Lost Sheep

 

[mr.revolverguy]

Wrote a review of the Ruger ALaskan 454 here. It could be light bullets but I am skeptical as I have shot 240gr Hornady out of mine which the box rated at 1900fps at the muzzle with no bullet creep. My take on this is that it is all grip and case crimp. One thing I noticed about the Hornady 454 traditional roll crimp was not used it was heavier than a roll crimp. The crimp was of such that the case was crimped flat against ht projectile. You can achieve this same crimp in reloading by turning your crimping die down real tight to the point of just about buckling the case. I believe this gives for tension minimizing bullet creep.

This is two factory rounds of 454 on the left Hornady on the right Winchester X, You can really see what I am talking about on the Winchester rounds.
Hope this helps.

 

[Hammerdown77]

The Winchester X, and some leftover, old Freedom Arms ammo I have both use a heavy crimp, like the round on the right in the picture above. Looks like they are crimped just to the point right before the case buckles, with the case flat into the crimp groove.

I can see how the round on the left would jump in a lighter gun like the Alaskan.