.454 Factory Ammo Jumpin' the Crimp

[rimrider]

Hi All,
What do you make of this?
Magtech 260's jumpin' the crimp, locked up my Alaskan!

Tried crimping the factory loads a little tighter...same result.
Tried crimping a little more, bent/buckled the cases. (Didn't shoot 'em).

Sent Magtech a few pics, no response.

Bad lot maybe?
Could be operator error?

Shoots 11.0gr HS6 under 335 Cast Performance just fine, pretty mild really.
Gonna try stepping it up to H110 loads with the same bullet.
Thought I'd throw it out there for comments.
Thanks guys,
sb

 

[mike7mm08]

That is a light bullet for the 454. Not much bullet for the case to grip. Couple that with a lot of recoil due to the weight of the alaskan could be the problem. I am thinking this because light bullets can be a problem in lightweight snubbies of other calibers. Smith actually labels their 340PD for bullets over 120 grain. Jumping crimp is a problem with lighter bullets as the 340 only weighs 11 ounces and has a ton of recoil. But any snubby with light bullets can have the problem. A good crimp usually prevents most problems.

What type of crimp are using? If you have not already I would try using the Lee Factory crimp die.

 

[63November]

Two things: good case tension, and a solid crimp. (Use the Lee FC die.)

It's also possible that your grip is allowing the light Alaskan to come back too fast which could also allow more potential for bullet jump.

FWIW, I've run some handloaded 420 grainer cast bullets through over 40 firing cycles in a 5 inch barrel SRH 480 with no sign of bullet movement. You just need to have plenty of tension and a good crimp (which I managed in that case with Hornady ND dies.)

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Happens with some ammo in hard kicking guns. Lead bullets usually have less bullet pull than jacketed rounds. Bottom line: switch ammo and re-test for function. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[Luckyducker]

I have a load for my 45LC Vaquero using 335 grain GC LFN Leadhead brand bullets over 23 grains of H110 that is a handful. When my friend shoots these the bullets will jump the crimp and lock up the gun, but they never do this when I shoot them. I believe it has to do with the way we each grip the revolver but don't know how we differ. You should have someone else shoot these Magtechs to see if the gun locks up while they are shooting. If it doesn't then you might be able to pick up on how they hold it and try to emulate their grip.

 

[63November]

The speed of recoil can certainly affect whether bullets move - actually don't, or scopes slide in their mounts. The person holding the firearm affects the abruptness of this movement depending on their mass and grip. A loose grip and heavy recoil is a good path to trouble.

 

[revhigh]

A good roll crimp in the cannelure will never jump. The bullets absolutely need cannelures and a proper roll crimp to stay put.

REV

 

[Jimbo357mag]

A good roll crimp in the cannelure will never jump. The bullets absolutely need cannelures and a proper roll crimp to stay put.

REV

Happens all the time with light guns and heavy kicking ammo.
I guess seeing isn't believing. Must be a Republican thing?? :wink: :wink:

...Jimbo

 

[mike7mm08]

I was hoping for a pic. Nothing wrong with that crimp. Don't see how you could crimp it any more. Definitely a case of light gun and heavy recoil. I would be interested to see how deep that cannelure is. Might be too shallow to get a real good crimp to handle the recoil of the Alaskan.

 

[revhigh]

Happens all the time with light guns and heavy kicking ammo.
I guess seeing isn't believing. Must be a Republican thing?? :wink: :wink:

'Happens all the time' ????

Yeah right ... sure it does ..... it's NEVER happened ONCE with my hand loaded ammo .... EVER ... and I load ALL my 454's with max loads of 2400.

obama's doing a great job too ..... just more leftist horse puckey.


REV

 

[WESHOOT2]

A good roll crimp in the cannelure will never jump.

I disagree.
Case neck tension AND a firm crimp can reduce most creep, but "never" is too strong.

 

[revhigh]

I'd say 'never' is closer to the truth than 'happens all the time' ...

NONE of mine have ever moved a bit .... well over 1000 full house loads.

REV

 

[63November]

Not every brass case has enough temper to firmly grip the bullet, nor does every expander plug will allow the correct tension in the case. And some crimp dies can form a stronger crimp without buckling the case than can others. Of course, there's the fact that the person setting things up must do things properly also. Ideally, a good crimp with proper case tension will hold the bullets even in a light revolver which recoils freely, held in the loosest way possible. But the reality is that things don't always work out this way though in factory ammo in these heavy recoilers, one should be able to expect them to - always, unless otherwise stated. If bullets are moving under recoil, something ain't right. I would go with that.

 

[Bucks Owin]

Happens all the time with light guns and heavy kicking ammo.
I guess seeing isn't believing. Must be a Republican thing?? :wink: :wink:

'Happens all the time' ????

Yeah right ... sure it does ..... it's NEVER happened ONCE with my hand loaded ammo .... EVER ... and I load ALL my 454's with max loads of 2400.

obama's doing a great job too ..... just more leftist horse puckey.


REV

I guess the photo of a box of cartridges proves his point somehow. Kinda like his pretty graphs and pie charts do in the POLITICAL SECTION.
Personally, I have zero problems with bullet jump in stout loads, be they jacketed or cast...."Happens all the time"...Yeah right....(maybe with Jimbo's handloads! :wink: )

(And Magtech ain't exactly premium ammo IMHO)

 

[unknwn]

I found and bought one of these for .45 Colt & .357 Magnum .
The collet style FCD versus the resizing collar of the regular Lee FCD just might make the difference.
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53_54&products_id=98

 

[Kanook]

A few years back, I called Georgia Arms and spoke with a manager. I mentioned that I was having some problems with the 454 jumping crimp. He asked how I liked shooting the Alaskan. I asked how he knew I was shooting the Ruger, his reply was that I was not the first call with this quiry about the 454 jumping crimp.

They offered to refund or exchange the ammo and it was my choice.

My reloads do not have this problem.

 

[Lost Sheep]

It happened about 20 years ago to Craig Medred (Outdoors writer for Anchorage Daily News) while he was taking down a Brown Bear with a 454 Casull in a Freedom Arms revolver. Could have been embarrassing.

I am pretty sure the same thing happened in August 2010 to Greg Bush near Soldotna, Alaska when he got jumped by a Brownie. He had to call on his cell phone for his wife to bring a rifle to finish the bear because his Ruger Alaskan was jammed.

Light gun (who would call a Super Redhawk light?), heavy load. You'd better have strong bullet retention.

Or maybe a recoil shield in FRONT of the cylinder.

Happens on my SP101, too.

Lost Sheep

 

[flatgate]

I have a F.A. .454 that I purchased back in the middle 1980's. I got ONE box of Factory Loads to "get me going". I've fired thousands of handloads through that gun. Nothing lighter than 300 grain bullets. My current favorite is a 335 gr. GC hard cast at 1575 fps. I've NEVER had a crimp issue. Period.

flatgate

 

[WESHOOT2]

Back in my 'day' I was working on a custom "Silver bullet" load for the 45 Colt (the load was not just a 'show' load, but was requested to meet an actual customer need), and the only "silver bullet" available was the 225g Silvertip.
My test platform was my 5.5" Redhawk; customer platform was a custom SA Ruger.

When trying to meet the customer's performance criteria, I was unable to secure those 225s in the case. Granted, the performance level was very high :shock: , but no conventional method secured those bullets (they are cannelured).
I first used my Redding Profile Crimp die(s).
No luck; crimp jump.
I tested with my LEE and Lyman and Dillon crimp dies; no luck.
I then moved to less conventional methods. I tried some custom 'tighter' crimp dies; I tried undersized sizers; I tried everything but adhesives (I never used adhesives due to my inability to confirm consistent bullet pull).
Then I went wacky, and tried sizers intended for smaller cartridges, until I was making guppy cases.
Even a 41 Magnum sizer. And a 41 AE. And a 400 CB. And a 10mm.
Nope.

When I 'slowed' the loads down I could maintain OAL, but pushed past sanity the creep continuously reared its unmanagable head.

My point for this story is simple: Certain loads launched from certain platforms will jump their crimp, and one cannot develop MAX loads for the 454 Casull using 2400.

 

[revhigh]

one cannot develop MAX loads for the 454 Casull using 2400.

Well ... considering that it was impossible for you to develop safe loads with YOUR powder that didn't jump the crimp' .... you should consider doing something that WAS physically possible .... maybe change something ..... like your powder.

Is it really worth the extra 15 fps when the rounds won't stay together ?

Please tell me in what instance full house 2400 rounds in 454 Casull won't work. If you're just chasing 'silver bullet' absolute maximum loads trying to eke out an extra 5 fps, go ahead .... I don't do that.

I prefer that my handloaded rounds actually WORK.

REV