45 Colt Snake Charmer

[wildcatter]

Well I was playing with an idea the other day and buddy thought I was nut's, usually I agree, but I knew I could make this work. Make some custom brass that would chamber in the Blackhawk and size it to transition frome chamber thru thr full length of the cylinder.

So after some experimenting and going through my old brass collection I did some sizing to form, only took my different die sets and some choice words, but I think I'm on the way.

They chamber well, and hold considerable amount of #8 shot, 172 pellets, of 225 grains of shot. Had a little trouble coming up with a wad but some Hi Density foam with a card over the powder and a card on top with melted 2500 bullet lube to seal, then a 5th die to give a slight crimp,, allows all six without the cap coming loose and shot falling out, don't ask how I know.

first test target, 15 feet, 5 yards 118 pelets in the target total which is 8" wide, 8 in the vitals, and 28 pellets in a neck, it will certainly kill a snake with a quick shot.

This from a 5.5" barrel, not sure what a shopkeeper or a 7.5" barrel would do, but for a first shot in a cylinder full of 340 grain slugs for protection where venimous snakes and big toothy critters roam,, it just might work?

Man I got to much time on my hands, I sure wish the new 327 GP-100 and the Mihec molds would get here,,, I really need something to do now that we lost the ice from another MISERABLE WINTER WARM UP!

 

[Jimbo357mag]

WOW! That is some nice brass and a powerful snake load. Well done.

 

[choirboy]

You can also use 444 Marlin brass trimmed to length. Works beautifully.

 

[s4s4u]

I did a similar project using 356 Win brass and used a gas check to cap off the shell. I got some 460 brass to make future cases. I had some respectable groups and penetration. Reason I did it was for close range grouse when deer hunting. I used a 44 mag sizer to neck down the cases.

 

[wildcatter]

If it were only that simple. The 444 case is to small to begin with for the big 45 chambers, it is thicker so it cut's down on payload, and then 44 mag sizing die is not small enough, and still wont allow the brass to be sized down enough to fit in the .4525" throats. This takes more than a couple dies. It has to start over 45 chamber size.

Then when reduced enough to fit the throats and you want to crimp the mouth slightly to hold the waxed cards during the light recoil from the charges of 231 pushing the 225 grains of shot out it takes some experimenting to find something short enough to crimp a 10mm case, but allow it to go deep enough to get to the crimp before the 45 cal sized case get's to the die.

But once you get all the bugs out, and find the right combo, it is about the only way to get this much shot in the big full length 45 cal cylinder. Now way any kind of wad or capsule will allow this much shot. I think I can get more #9's by weight maybe 270 grn. or more, and that means a lot more shot count, probably around 225 or 250 pellets.

I'm crying knowing someone is destroying precious hard to get 356 Win brass. But once it's made, these cases will last forever,,, if you don't get to aggressive belling and crimping, a little goes a long way..

This will be my next task, finding #9 shot, and that's hard locally.

 

[gramps]

I think your smaller shot won’t be heavy enough to kill the grouse. I have used both #9 and #12 shot to euthanize malformed chicks. They both performed miserably at 5 feet! In fact, I would drop down to #6 shot. Good luck!
gramps

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Is that 445 Supermag brass?

 

[s4s4u]

I'm crying knowing someone is destroying precious hard to get 356 Win brass.

Haha, if it will make you feel a little better I only did a half-dozen just so I could experiment as to the feasibility of the project. I have 460 brass now ;-)

 

[s4s4u]

I think your smaller shot won’t be heavy enough to kill the grouse. I have used both #9 and #12 shot to euthanize malformed chicks. They both performed miserably at 5 feet! In fact, I would drop down to #6 shot. Good luck!
gramps

What platform did you use to propel the shot?

 

[Don Lovel]

Down here in southern Missouri this coming spring I know we will have a bunch of copperheads around, last spring 9 were killed on this property and dozens more seen. I was thinking about making some #4 buckshot in wax or maybe in sections of the fat drinking soda straws with the end melted together sitting on a playing card wad on the powder.

 

[wildcatter]

Ya thanks for the heads up gramps, my buddy said the same thing in 2 1/2" 410 shells in his judge, said the lighter shot might be good for running pests off as he didn't have to worry about killing them. But at 15 feet don't you think the #8 will penetrate a snake.

As for grouse, and chucker the 327 with mild 100 grain WFN's is what I would go for. But I ain't ever got within 5 yards of either. This is strictly fer snakes. If I had the copperheads like that, she'd have all six chambers ready, I may not hit a 1/2" narrow target with a slug but with shot I don't think I could miss in a hurried shot.

and yes the brass is 460 S&W, Hornady brass as I won't reload it, didn't care much for it, pretty weak and soft in the head, I load Starline in my 460 encore.

 

[DeletedMember275]

Very interesting! Any chance we could get you to post a pictorial step-by-step of the process?

 

[WendyZXZ]

Nice Ruger and should be a great one on snakes!

 

[Slenk]

I do about the same thing with 30-40 brass , and 303 british for my 44 magnum . #71/2 shot works great on grouse.

 

[Clark]

I think your smaller shot won’t be heavy enough to kill the grouse.

That's about all I use when hunting them. Grouse are pretty frail and one or two pellets will send them earthward.

Clark

 

[wildcatter]

well folk's I ain't worried about the power with #8 shot inside 15 feet anyways, I am also seeing why my 44 die wasnt small enough. I was sizing i half of the case, with no mandrel inside to keep it centered it would take the path of least resistance.

I know have 12 fire formed cases, they are centered now and the 44 bell and crimp are all I need now, I only use the 45 die to deprime and resize the chamber part of the cartridge. I also raised the shot to 245 grains now. They are perfectly concentric to the cylinder after fire forming with a healthy doe of WW-231.

Trust me a snake is shredded meat well past 15 feet if it does this to a full water bottle. it fully penetrated the water and came out the back side, as there are shot holes 360 degrees around the bottle!

 

[wildcatter]

I will stick with the #8 though, I am not going to risk the #9 shot penetrating. Gramp's you may be right with a load safe in any other revolver than a Blackhawk, I am stoking these babies up. 3/4 oz of shot is a pretty stiff charge. The loads I am putting on these are hotter than 410 shell with 3/4 oz of shot. So no I won't elaborate on this project not knowing how safe it would be in other guns. but one thing is for sure, this is as I always thought, way more lethal than a Judge or other revolver made for 410's, plus even the old contender wouldn't do this with colt ammo at 25 yards!

 

[s4s4u]

Gramp's you may be right with a load safe in any other revolver than a Blackhawk, I am stoking these babies up. 3/4 oz of shot is a pretty stiff charge. The loads I am putting on these are hotter than 410 shell with 3/4 oz of shot. So no I won't elaborate on this project not knowing how safe it would be in other guns.

Keep in mind that you are not pushing a solid projectile down a restricted bore so pressure isn't going to be even close to a regular cartridge. Loose shot has little to no resistance.

 

[DGW1949]

I've spent many a night hunting copperheads around my place with a flashlight in one hand and my trusty Uberti .45LC SAA in the other. Using cut-down .444 Marlin cases which have been run through a 30-06 sizer-die has worked great for me, as-has loading them with #6 shot.

Now, that's not to say that the OP's method wouldn't be better, for it's clear that all else being equal, his loads would hold more shot than mine regardless of which shot size was being used. Plus, using a case which has more capacity would certainly allow for more leeway to experiment with various powders, wad types/thickness, and shot size VS shot count.
Purty-impressive stuff he has done there, that's what it is...

My hat's off to him.

DGW

 

[wildcatter]

Gramp's you may be right with a load safe in any other revolver than a Blackhawk, I am stoking these babies up. 3/4 oz of shot is a pretty stiff charge. The loads I am putting on these are hotter than 410 shell with 3/4 oz of shot. So no I won't elaborate on this project not knowing how safe it would be in other guns.

Keep in mind that you are not pushing a solid projectile down a restricted bore so pressure isn't going to be even close to a regular cartridge. Loose shot has little to no resistance.

This is exactly why I am not going into details. There is a lot more to think about here. These loads are top end with the same weight cast slugs. The cast slugs are released as soon as the primer ignites the mixture, which has almost 1/2 of the volume of the case for the gas to expand before the bullet starts to move, the restriction becomes a seal approx 1/2 to 5/8" into the bullet traveling and entering into the lands.

Now when we neck a case down, we create a restriction, plus that same powder charge now has no place to expand with the card firmly seated against the powder, and the shot filling the entire case, with a small crimp using the expander die to firmly set the top card, an aluminum GC, on the shot then lightly crimped. we now have a compressed case!

Now when the primer ignites the powder, already under pressure, there is no where for the gas to expand till it creates room in the case. In order to do that, it has a 45 cal case compressed with shot, trying to funnel out a restricted shoulder funneling it down to a 44 cases capacity for over 1/3'd the distance it is trying to evacuate from the larger space it is in! This is not a straight wall wad or sabot. This is what can create problems, over 2/3 the shot I am using, which is as much as a 410 magnum load total, has to go out a restricted hole from the cavity it is in.

There is enough pressure to fire form the brass to make it concentric to the case. Initial sizing leaves the case shoulder off center, with a little over half the diameter of the case getting a shoulder and one side usually still a straight wall. After firing these are blown out to have a shoulder all the way around the case. That takes a a good bit of pressure to blow that 460 S&W case out. trust me folks, I have many trips to the range with little steps up to get to where I am, and after shooting Ruger only loads before they were published some 40 years ago, this load is way over the pressure limits of a 410 shell.

But like DWG said, there is no way possible to get more shot in a 45 colt revolver than I have created here.

 

[wildcatter]

I also think going to the same weight of a finer shot #9 or #12, could very easily make pressures even greater, as I think the shot would have the ability to pack tighter, creating more pressure getting it all through the restriction at the chamber? I'm leaving well enough alone, and suggesting others not to try this, as I am using personally altered components, and no way to duplicate them with certainty!

 

[patotn]

Some time ago I ran into an article that shows another way of doing this. The details are for 38 special but at the beginning he does give some info for making ammo for a 45 colt.

http://www.gunblast.com/Snake_Stopper.htm

 

[wildcatter]

Believe me 70 grains of shot is not even close to what the 250 grains of shot is like,,,, I won't elaborate on the powder charge but 4.5 grains of 231 in a 38 case is way so anemic as I am sure it far from a Ruger Only 45 Colt load.

I have a buddy with a bond 4" Snake Charmer, and trust me even his 5/8 oz loads in 410 are anemic to the 45 Colt 460-1/2oz shot loads. I am so impressed with what shot out of a handgun can do compaired to the Judge and other 410 chambered guns the pale in performance to this setup.

I do have one problem with the second firing, the shoulder it creates when firing it, makes for tough extraction on the second firing. I will bump the shoulder back in the this third reloading and see what that does to ease extraction, I really hate to drop the charge, as like I say,,,, It Is Impressive.

 

[DGW1949]

I was wondering why you weren't seeing harder extraction with such a long bottle neck.
Mine was doing that right from the get go, just from the roll-crimp unfolding into the throat of the cylinder. "Was" meaning that once the issue came up, I trimmed my cases another smidget...and "smidget" being a highly technical term for 'just enough to keep the fired case out of the throat itself'. :lol: .

DGW

 

[wildcatter]

If I did DGW then it would be like an old speer shot capsule, anemic from a shot standpoint an just a novelty like the Tarrus Judge and other like revolvers shooting 410 shells. I am not seeing any trouble once it starts to move during extraction, just a slight drag from the throat not being polished like the chamber but no real problem finishing the extraction. But shortening the case and not having the capacity I have now would mean approximately a 40 to 45 shot count loss.

Right now I am loading 184 to 186 pellets in a case, and seeing what it does out to 60 feet and a bit further with a pop can, I will just keep it the way it is, I don't see needing more than 2 of these loads ahead of 4 340 grain Ruger only loads when carrying for self defense from creatures that can harm you, carnivores and snakes where both exist.

I made this as a very specialty load for one application. If I am hunting, this revolver will not be my hunting weapon, I have others even in the same caliber that I will be carrying the loads I intend to use for whatever quarry I will be chasing. If small game is my quarry I will be using the .32, if larger game is the quarry, I will not be blasting away at small game ruining my opportunities at LARGE GAME. Besides, this load will be mainly for when I head out west to visit my friends that are moving there when we want to hit the trails. Usually where and when I hunt, it is to cold that time of year for snakes to be out at the same time where I will be.

I will not be playing with these often to worry about the tough extraction if bumping the neck transition doesn't work. It will just take two dies now, a 44 and a 45 to resize what I am going to load. I just would like it to solve the problem, but a less powerful load (less powder or shot) is not an option for this cartridge since I am not creating to much preasure.

 

[DGW1949]

I understand what you are doing and why you are doing it, and just in passing, I'm not a fan of the Speer shot capsule either...hence my own efforts at coming up with 'something better'.
That said though, I couldn't duplicate your results even if I tried, simply because your revolver has a much longer cylinder than mine.
Still though, your project has me intrigued. Not so much in terms of buying a .44 sizer for creating a neck, but more along the line of obtaining another cylinder and boring it's chambers 'strait through' in order to eliminate the throats altogether. That way, I could trim my brass to more closely match the chamber length much as you have done, only without my having to guess at whatever pressure differences may be being created by a 'neck'...because unlike your situation, my revolver is not anywhere near being capable of handling anything close to a "Ruger only" type of load...That make sense?

At any rate, thanks again for posting what (to me) has become a very interesting thread. You've given me a lot to think about.

DGW

 

[wildcatter]

You know what you that is a terrific idea DGW! ,Especially for the Blackhawk as used cylinders are not that hard to come by or expensive, except it would leave the accuracy dept. with the same issues as the Tarrus and Smith, and other 410 revolvers, that leave the 45 colt loads almost worthless in the accuracy dept with their long freebore. But for defense only from thing that want to eat or kill you that is of no matter, plus it would hold more shot, and have less constriction. It would still place the 340 grain slug plenty close enough to save your life at close range.

But you would loose the ability to backup the hunting revolver if it ever had a failure. But since mine would be a Blackhawk anyways, I wouldn't have to ever worry about a failure,,,,,

 

[nvbirdman]

.444 Marlin brass works perfectly for this, the other one I use is .307 Winchester brass.

 

[wildcatter]

any other brass than the 460 is going to be less desirable