30 Accidental Discharges??

[nekvermont]

I just don't know what to say about this article. 30 accidental discharges by L.A. Sheriffs Deputies in 2014?? :shock: And some people with small hands need 2 fingers to pull the trigger?? :shock:
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-sheriff-guns-20150614-story.html#page=1

 

[Mike J]

How long ago was it that Jeff Cooper published the 4 rules. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target? I have never heard of or seen anyone have to use 2 fingers to pull a trigger.

 

[loaded round]

I've shot the Smith M&P Pro-9 extensively and it is fine firearm with an excellent light trigger, striker fired. One must learn to handle and fire this handgun correctly the same as a Glock or similar pistol. Again as the Pistol Guru, Jeff Cooper always said, " keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire". 'Nuff said!

 

[Pat-inCO]

Article was written by a wild-eyed liberal that knows little about guns.

Second point: If they are not teaching officers/deputies the basics of
firearm safety, there WILL be ADs (actually NDs). Each of the incidents
noted in the article were NEGLIGENT discharges. Can you say MORE
and proper TRAINING?

It's the idiot with his/her booger hook on the bang switch, when it should
NOT BE, that are the problem. I have it on good authority that a gun will
not "just go off" by itself. So train the idiots. :roll:

Interesting side note (at least to me) is that my SIL is a training officer
for the Sheriff's Department he works for and has-been/still-is, pushing
his group to go with the 1911. They have about half the force converted
and AMAZING, no NDs. Humm . . . . does that mean training works? :shock:

 

[loaded round]

Pat:
Nice post. I'm a 1911 man myself.
LR

Article was written by a wild-eyed liberal that knows little about guns.

Second point: If they are not teaching officers/deputies the basics of
firearm safety, there WILL be ADs (actually NDs). Each of the incidents
noted in the article were NEGLIGENT discharges. Can you say MORE
and proper TRAINING?

It's the idiot with his/her booger hook on the bang switch, when it should
NOT BE, that are the problem. I have it on good authority that a gun will
not "just go off" by itself. So train the idiots. :roll:

Interesting side note (at least to me) is that my SIL is a training officer
for the Sheriff's Department he works for and has-been/still-is, pushing
his group to go with the 1911. They have about half the force converted
and AMAZING, no NDs. Humm . . . . does that mean training works? :shock:

 

[Don Lovel]

In every case it was Booger hook on the bang switch, no such thing as an AD for this bunch, total brain fart because, the LA regional cops are morons who have drank the anti gun agenda tea and "they know it all anyway and why should we try to learn different" mentality.
Those S&W guns can be dropped off a building loaded and wont go off, so we know who is to blame, It's the NRA's fault, of course.

 

[flyingron]

6 to 8 pounds ain't exactly a hair-trigger. How a "safety" is going to help when they're wandering around with their guns drawn (what's the point of drawing your gun if you don't also have a bullet chambered and the safety off?).

 

[Cheesewhiz]

There are a lot of good points being made but how many are based in the reality of the situation?

More training (?), the article says they have already elevated the length and amount of training.

The article quotes a 6 to 8 pound trigger pull but the M&P's (stock) that I have shot all probably fell in at the lower end of that scale, maybe even less.

...and that brings up another point, an Apex trigger mod is a drop in on this gun and will lower that pull even further, I've heard gun owners on this forum and others and in many face to face discussions claim that a light, less than 4#(?), less than 3# trigger on a carry gun being just fine 'if you know what you are doing'.

 

[bogus bill]

This is off Wikipedia: [The LASD is the largest sheriff's department, and the fourth largest local policing agency in the United States. There are more than 18,000 employees; over 9,100 (according to California Post ) of whom are sworn deputies and over 8,000 civilians (professional staff). There are an additional 4,200 civilian volunteers, 900 reserve deputies and 400 explorers. John L. Scott was sworn in as the Interim Sheriff replacing Leroy D. Baca on January 30, 2014.]
That`s a big department. I lived in Lancaster and had friends that were deputies and worked with some retired ones on my job,their retirement job. I have re qualified with their range master for my job at their departments range. Of course it was still in the days we still used revolvers. One of their range masters told me of a incident where he noticed a deputy who was unaware that he had a cocked revolver in his holster! Stuff happens when you live wearing a gun and more stuff happens when over 10,000 do!
Many years ago I had a deputy friend out of the Lancaster station that accidentally shot and killed a guy. Some guy went into a tavern out of town bordering the desert. He had been out shooting. He went into the bar wearing his gun and holster. A nervous patron dropped a dime and my friend got the call. It had been raining and the ground was slick. The deputy was in a crouch behind his cruiser and when the guy came out, he complied, took his gunbelt off to throw his rig in his vehicle, the deputy slipped trying to stand and his gun went off hitting the guy in the throat!

 

[bogus bill]

In all my experiences with the LASD deputies I have no gripe. I lived in Los Angeles county for forty years. 1965 to 2005. I even had about four or five incidents where they had to "shake" me down to sort things out. One did mildly upset me but in the aftermath I understood. I was sitting in my house talking on the phone with a friend. I had been out shooting a cap and ball navy clone. I either had cleaned it or was just getting ready to when their was a knock on the door. I laid down the revolver, (Thank God!!!) to answer the door. A uniformed deputy was to one side of the door and a detective to the other. I didn't know either one. The detective said, "Someone just robbed a shop downtown, and his truck is just like yours!" I said well, it aint this one!" He said raise the hood! I said okay, but it`s a 110 degrees out here! He felt the engine and said sorry. Then I seen the third deputy for the first time. He looked like a kid and his face was red as a beet as he came from behind a cruiser with a shotgun he had on me. That pizzed me off as I could tell he was a rookie and highly wound! Had I answered the door with my cap & ball in my hand I wouldn't be writing this and 45 years ago there would have been a headline saying I had died resisting arrest!
It`s unfair to lump the Los Angeles city PD and county deputy's I knew personally with a broad brush, and I knew MANY. The ones I knew well, knew their jobs and guns.
My huge Lockheed Plant Protection Dept hired a good number of them after they retired. I liked them all.

 

[Mobuck]

" Had I answered the door with my cap & ball in my hand I wouldn't be writing this and 45 years ago there would have been a headline saying I had died resisting arrest!"
You would not have committed a crime in doing so(?) and would have been murdered in your own home. Yes, I'd say that would be grounds for "being mildly upset".
When an honest citizen fears death at the hands of the police while doing something which is not criminal, THERE IS A PROBLEM.
Makes me kind of queasy just thinking about all the times those officers might have pointed their guns at innocent citizens.

 

[SAJohn]

I always have thought that it was a bad idea to arm our LEOs with semiautomatic high capacity pistols (usually 17 rounds). The number of innocent bystanders shot each year in some of our cities sometimes approaches 50%.

 

[bogus bill]

Thinking about it, I recall another incident that made me mad. I was assigned to guard a object my company had inside Edwards AFB. We weren't to go armed on the base.
It was graveyard and there were two of us. My buddy was on patrol and I was working the alarms and desk. I got a alarm and sent him to it. He found nothing and came back. It went off again. I said I will take this one, we are being tested, to big of a coincident. I got in a pitch black hanger and a guy hollered out, "Put up your hands, I have a gun on ya!" I went along with the drill and a black guy stepped out from hiding.
I worked there 35 years as a guard. We would have Gvt spooks test us occasionally but never before had one claimed to have a gun on me. That made me mad and could have been very bad for him and me. He was "trusting" I was unarmed. It was a very, very rare time I wasnt. (I think). We got into it. Twice more that I can recall, I was working elsewhere in the middle of nowhere on military installations, always on graveyard and had MP`s or AP`s also have me go through the drill. They were a LOT better trained at it! The civilian spook, not so much.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

All the training commentary is right. That said, i find this most interesting . . .

"The switch was prompted in part by the threat of a lawsuit by women who had failed the Sheriff's Academy. More recruits — including more women — are now passing the firearms test, and veteran deputies are also logging better scores at the firing range."

In other words, the requirements were compromised to avoid litigation from those who couldn't meet the established standards. On our way down the slippery slope . . .

 

[WendyZXZ]

Each of the incidents
noted in the article were NEGLIGENT discharges. Can you say MORE
and proper TRAINING?:shock:

I agree. An accidental discharge would be a mechanical failure on the pistol and not caused by some action on the part of the shooter.

 

[pete44ru]

I have never heard of or seen anyone have to use 2 fingers to pull a trigger.

My Son had to.................... back when he was 7 years old (40 years ago).... :roll:


.

 

[blackhawknj]

And THESE are the "professionals" ?

 

[wunbe]

I wonder how many of those ADs came as the officers cleared their weapons at end of shift in the discharge system provided for that purpose? If a lot them were, some of the ADs should have an asterisk as SADs or safe accidental discharges. It is not a tribute to training or good habits so much as a provision of safety devices that take into account human error and focus lapses. In the days before the bullet traps were available, lots of injuries and deaths came at end of shift in the house.

wunbe

 

[graygun]

How long ago was it that Jeff Cooper published the 4 rules. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target? I have never heard of or seen anyone have to use 2 fingers to pull a trigger.

Mil and LE has some very small gun carriers these days. I once saw a AF cop with a upside-down-slung 16 that looked very long in comparison to her height.

 

[blume357]

I bet it's a lot more than 30 if you go on the principle that anytime one of the officers fired his or her weapon and did not hit the target. Would that not technically be a negligent discharge?

 

[Mobuck]

"some of the ADs should have an asterisk as SADs or safe accidental discharges"

My opinion differs on this comment. ANYTIME there is an unintentional discharge of a firearm, a mistake was made. Regardless of the safe/unsafe location, there was still a mistake made. Law of averages suggests that if those mistakes are made often enough, someone will get hurt.
There are places where an unintentional discharge will get you killed and others where your "buddies" might beat the snot out of you for endangering them or the mission. Allowing cops a pass on ANY AD, ND, or UD is wrong. Put them on unpaid leave, make them wear a sign, and/or do PT until they have the right motivation.