1911 Accuracy - WW2 style

[BlackEye]

Is there a real level of accuracy overall for the WW2 1911 with a competent shooter? Or did accuracy vary wildly from gun to gun? How similar were the issue guns overall, as in consistent tolerances from one to the other? How much difference in group size if you compare GI Ball ammo to something more 'modern'?

 

[revhigh]

Is there a real level of accuracy overall for the WW2 1911 with a competent shooter?

Most WWII working guns were extremely loose by design. Made that way to perform in extremes of temperature, humidity, and climate ... as well as being useable in mud and sand. Pretty much made to be able to consistently shoot someone in the chest from bayonet or a little farther distances, and put them down with ONE shot. Today's 'tight' 1911's would be a potential problem in those conditions.

Accuracy is also better in today's guns. Not that the old guns can't be MADE accurate ... it just takes some tuning.

In general I'd say this just off the top of my head. An old rattletrap junker worn-out WWII 1911 would probably be capable of 6-8 inch groups (or more) at 25 yards .... even today's least expensive 1911's like RIA's are usually capable of 4 - 6 inch groups at 25 yards ... usually toward the smaller end of that range from what I've seen. It's a rare out of the box 1911 these days that can't shoot 4 or 5 inch groups consistently at 25 yards.

Any gun shoots better with quality ammo. That does NOT include WWB.

REV

 

[DGW1949]

I remember seeing an old ordinance report that was sent by the now-defunct Springfield Armory not long after WWII had ended. Seems they'd taken a sampling of the 1911's that had been turned in after the war, inspected them for servicability, put them into a fixture and test-fired them for accuracy at 100 yds. If I recall correctly, the average group size was on the order of 3.5 MOA.

DGW

 

[revhigh]

If that's 3.5 inches ... I highly doubt that.


REV

 

[BlackEye]

How much use would a GI have actually used his 1911? A couple hundred rounds a year?

 

[DGW1949]

If that's 3.5 inches ... I highly doubt that.


REV

I hear ya Rev. When I saw the report, I was a bit shocked myself.
As I recall, the copy I saw was posted by one of the older guys on the M1 Rifle forum of Culver's Shooting Pages back when I was a member there.....and that would have been about 8-10 years ago.
It'll take some doing's but I'll see if I can pull up another copy.

DGW

 

[revhigh]

If that's 3.5 inches ... I highly doubt that.


REV

I hear ya Rev. When I saw the report, I was a bit shocked myself.
As I recall, the copy I saw was posted by one of the older guys on the M1 Rifle forum of Culver's Shooting Pages back when I was a member there.....and that would have been about 8-10 years ago.
It'll take some doing's but I'll see if I can pull up another copy.

DGW

That would be interesting ... I doubt many of todays excellent 1911's could do that ... hell ... a lot of RIFLES can't do that.

I doubt many mini 14's could do it. I have one .... I know.

REV

 

[Snake45]

I remember seeing an old ordinance report that was sent by the now-defunct Springfield Armory not long after WWII had ended. Seems they'd taken a sampling of the 1911's that had been turned in after the war, inspected them for servicability, put them into a fixture and test-fired them for accuracy at 100 yds. If I recall correctly, the average group size was on the order of 3.5 MOA.

DGW

Like Rev, I'm finding that hard to believe. 3.5 inches at 25 yards, I might believe. Or maybe 3.5 mils at 100.

 

[Rockrat]

Comparing my Dads aircrew gun, a Remington Rand, vs. a new RI, the Remington shoots circles around the RI. I was shocked at how well it shot.

 

[revhigh]

my Dads Remington shoots circles around the RI.

A statement like the above needs qualifying to have any relevance. 'Shoots circles around' doesn't tell anybody anything.

I for one find that kind of hard to believe, and it would also depend on the shooter's ability. Without a consistent shooter ... there is no telling why the guns shot differently. The old WWII guns were known to be sorely lacking in the accuracy department, and today's 1911's are exceptionally accurate out of the box.


REV

 

[Snake45]

I remember seeing an old ordinance report that was sent by the now-defunct Springfield Armory not long after WWII had ended. Seems they'd taken a sampling of the 1911's that had been turned in after the war, inspected them for servicability, put them into a fixture and test-fired them for accuracy at 100 yds. If I recall correctly, the average group size was on the order of 3.5 MOA.

DGW

Like Rev, I'm finding that hard to believe. 3.5 inches at 25 yards, I might believe. Or maybe 3.5 mils at 100.

From Wiki:

There are 2000π milliradians (≈ 6283.185 mrad) in a circle. So a milliradian is just under 1⁄6283 of a circle, or ≈ 3.438 minutes of arc. Each of the definitions of the angular mil are similar to that value but are easier to divide into many parts.

So 3.5 mils would be about 11.9 inches at 100 yards. Now that is very believable. :wink:

 

[BlackEye]

I did a bit more research on the internet and the 1911. In WW I the military goal was to issue every soldier a 45 caliber sidearm. A lot of the 1911s were reissued for WW2. They were checked out by armorers and re-furbed as necessary. Early slides were said to be prone to cracking for one thing. Another article stated that a group of 7-8" was borderline to whether it was sent for re-furbish? Range being 25 yards. A couple of the reads :

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/32196-original-1911-wwii-i-love-gun.

 

[DGW1949]

I remember seeing an old ordinance report that was sent by the now-defunct Springfield Armory not long after WWII had ended. Seems they'd taken a sampling of the 1911's that had been turned in after the war, inspected them for servicability, put them into a fixture and test-fired them for accuracy at 100 yds. If I recall correctly, the average group size was on the order of 3.5 MOA.

DGW

Like Rev, I'm finding that hard to believe. 3.5 inches at 25 yards, I might believe. Or maybe 3.5 mils at 100.

From Wiki:

There are 2000π milliradians (≈ 6283.185 mrad) in a circle. So a milliradian is just under 1⁄6283 of a circle, or ≈ 3.438 minutes of arc. Each of the definitions of the angular mil are similar to that value but are easier to divide into many parts.

So 3.5 mils would be about 11.9 inches at 100 yards. Now that is very believable. :wink:

Yeah Snake, that IS more likely what my foggy brain was trying to pull up. Sorry about the mistake.

DGW

 

[revhigh]

Yeah Snake, that IS more likely what my foggy brain was trying to pull up. Sorry about the mistake.

DGW

No big deal ... that makes more sense ... that is ... if it makes sense at all to shoot a 1911 at 100 yards ... especially an old timer.

REV