‘The Battle of Chosin’

[Wyandot Jim]

I will be watching this. It is unbelievable what the Marines and the Army went through in this battle.

http://undertheradar.military.com/2016/10/battle-of-chosin-pbs-under-the-radar/

On November 1st, the PBS documentary series American Experience premieres a powerful documentary called The Battle of Chosin, one of the most important and least known battles in U.S. military history. The program will air from 9-11pm ET in most cities but, as always with PBS, check your local listings and will be available to stream from the PBS apps and website. We’ve got a video clip from the program below.

The documentary includes interviews with veterans who fought in the battle, men who’ve never been asked to tell their stories before now. Almost 3,000 Americans died in the battle and almost 13,000 were wounded (many by the extreme cold). There are estimates that China and North Korea lost 40,000 men.

 

[cleardatum]

i had (until recently) a next door neighbor who was one of the "chosin few".

 

[mistermills357]

It was a situation that justified using battlefield nukes on the N. Koreans & Chinese.

 

[Colonialgirl]

ON our PBS at 9:00 tonight

 

[daveg.inkc]

I read "Last Stand of Fox Company". -30 -40 degree weather. The heavy woolen Chinese winter coats would stop M1 .30 caliber bullets. This is one book I couldn't put down. Amazing story

 

[daveg.inkc]

Darn good show

 

[Colonialgirl]

I watched;
May God bless those who did not make it out and may He find a warm spot in heaven for them through eternity.
Bless too those that fought and lived through that hell.
The first of the wars not won with a resounding victory thanks to the UN and the Russian second in Command of that useless organization.

 

[WMB30]

and Truman

Bill

 

[blackhawknj]

I wonder how many of those stories of M-1 Carbine rounds not stopping Chinese soldiers were more due to an exhausted and groggy and sleep deprived GI or Marine trying to fight off Chinese hordes at 0200 in 10 degrees below zero weather with winds howling.
Those who rail against defense spending and see the Pentagon's budget as a cash cow to pay for social programs should be thrown into the Quantum Leap Transporter and wake up and find themselves in the Pusan Perimeter or at Frozen Chosin.
For 1950 Time Magazine chose the American Fighting Man as its Man of the Year.

 

[graygun]

I forgot and only saw the last 30-40 minutes.

 

[daveg.inkc]

I'd say the M1 .30 is anemic. 110? 120? Gr round nose. Book brings out M1 Garand would penetrate and stop enemy. Also actions were freezing closed. Hard to imagine what these soldiers went thru

 

[blume357]

My Father's hands.
In his 80's my father started to have some cognitive difficulties and the VA wanted to run an MRI of his brain, he had never had a cavity and so there was no metal of any kind ... but they decided to do an X-ray first... found a piece of shrapnel in his head.

 

[ronto]

From what I gathered watching it, this disaster was caused by General MacArthur's "cocky" attitude by discounting Chinese intervention and the level and competency thereof. The same attitude resulted in Robert E. Lee's defeat at Gettysburg. Patton was a great and aggressive general but he didn't let his mouth overload his butt.
That being said, the brave men who fought and died in this disaster will forever have the upmost respect from me and all Americans.

 

[Colonialgirl]

From what I gathered watching it, this disaster was caused by General MacArthur's "cocky" attitude by discounting Chinese intervention and the level and competency thereof. The same attitude resulted in Robert E. Lee's defeat at Gettysburg. Patton was a great and aggressive general but he didn't let his mouth overload his butt.
That being said, the brave men who fought and died in this disaster will forever have the upmost respect from me and all Americans.

Some of that "disaster" and blame in the film I suspect is based on a dislike of MacArthur. Do keep in mind too that they WERE aware that the Chinese were stockpiling supplies NORTH of the Yalu in a "NO FLY ZONE";
Hmmm, does that remind one of Vietnam and areas around Hanoi and Hai Phong ? TOO, as I pointed out everything got filtered through the UN and if you don't believe the Russians weren't feeding the information to the Chinese, I have a bridge in New York I'll sell you cheap. I DO BELIEVE that the landing in Inchon went well because it DID NOT go to the UN First. I would NOT call the Chinese "competent" when they sent in 60,000 people, the Second wave was not all completely armed (Sounds like the Russians VS the Germans where the Russians were attacking the Germans in the City; The Second "wave" of Russians was told to pick up the rifles casualties in the first rank dropped) Ditto the Chinese. ALSO keep in mind that they LOST an estimated 30,000 soldiers and many of them FROZE to death or starved.
RE: General Lee; I would NOT call him "cocky", Keep in mind he DID NOT chose the battle field and that "what's his name" Calvary General was LATE getting to the battle.

 

[GunnyGene]

 

[Fox Mike]

One of my old Army buddies was just 17 and a deuce and a half driver on that trip. He didn't talk about it much except to say that it was the coldest he has ever been, for so long.

 

[graygun]

Hell of a battle...kind of angers me that some pay so much and others not a damn thing.

I'll have to watch the whole program. That scene where a guy gave a Pall Mall to a Chinese prisoner was touching. The prisoner had ice stuck to his bare feet.

 

[Tallbald]

When I saw this thread and told Miss Penny, she and I made it a point to tune in. My Lord what those men tolerated. I wish I could shake the hand and say "thank you" to each and every one of them and place flowers on the graves of those who made the ultimate sacrifice. My God hold them all in your hand please. Don.

 

[blume357]

You know you are in for a story of real men at the beginning when the guy is telling about being blown out of his foxhole and seeing someone's severed leg laying in the snow and thinking, "damn, some poor guy has gotten his leg blown off!"... then realizing it was his leg.

 

[ronto]

From what I gathered watching it, this disaster was caused by General MacArthur's "cocky" attitude by discounting Chinese intervention and the level and competency thereof. The same attitude resulted in Robert E. Lee's defeat at Gettysburg. Patton was a great and aggressive general but he didn't let his mouth overload his butt.
That being said, the brave men who fought and died in this disaster will forever have the upmost respect from me and all Americans.

Some of that "disaster" and blame in the film I suspect is based on a dislike of MacArthur. Do keep in mind too that they WERE aware that the Chinese were stockpiling supplies NORTH of the Yalu in a "NO FLY ZONE";
Hmmm, does that remind one of Vietnam and areas around Hanoi and Hai Phong ? TOO, as I pointed out everything got filtered through the UN and if you don't believe the Russians weren't feeding the information to the Chinese, I have a bridge in New York I'll sell you cheap. I DO BELIEVE that the landing in Inchon went well because it DID NOT go to the UN First. I would NOT call the Chinese "competent" when they sent in 60,000 people, the Second wave was not all completely armed (Sounds like the Russians VS the Germans where the Russians were attacking the Germans in the City; The Second "wave" of Russians was told to pick up the rifles casualties in the first rank dropped) Ditto the Chinese. ALSO keep in mind that they LOST an estimated 30,000 soldiers and many of them FROZE to death or starved.
RE: General Lee; I would NOT call him "cocky", Keep in mind he DID NOT chose the battle field and that "what's his name" Calvary General was LATE getting to the battle.

If MacArthur knew the Chinese were stockpiling supplies and men on the border then why did he walk into a potential trap in horrible weather conditions? He referred to the Chinese as a bunch of "laundry men"...sounds "cocky" to me. :)
As far as Lee is concerned, invading Northern territory doesn't sound like a cautious and wise move when the North out numbered him in terms of men, supplies, and most importantly a superior supply line.

 

[blackhawknj]

The Chinese Intervention is a good example of how over-reliance on technology leads to very serious mistakes, or, as I like to say "Smart weapons lead to stupid soldiers." The Red Chinese made almost no use of radio, our monitoring services detected no radio traffic, therefore no military activity, right ? In WWI the Russian general Alexei Brusilov planned his 1916 offensive by recognizing that his compatriots tendency to blab on the radio gave the enemy valuable information, he restricted the issuance of his orders to word of mouth. In WWII the Germans learned from our pre- D-Day deception operations, for their planning for the Ardennes Offensive they set up a phantom "25th Army" in Northwestern Germany, made it look they were planning a major operation in that area.

 

[GunnyGene]

The Chinese Intervention is a good example of how over-reliance on technology leads to very serious mistakes, or, as I like to say "Smart weapons lead to stupid soldiers." The Red Chinese made almost no use of radio, our monitoring services detected no radio traffic, therefore no military activity, right ? In WWI the Russian general Alexei Brusilov planned his 1916 offensive by recognizing that his compatriots tendency to blab on the radio gave the enemy valuable information, he restricted the issuance of his orders to word of mouth. In WWII the Germans learned from our pre- D-Day deception operations, for their planning for the Ardennes Offensive they set up a phantom "25th Army" in Northwestern Germany, made it look they were planning a major operation in that area.

Some Generals learn by reading. Some learn by observation. The rest just piss on the electric fence for themselves.

[01.13] Warfare is the Way of deception.

[01.14] Therefore, if able, appear unable; if active, appear inactive; if near, appear far; if far, appear near.

[01.15] If your enemies have advantage, bait them; if they are confused, capture them; if they are numerous, prepare for them; if they are strong, avoid them; if they are angry, disturb them; if they are humble, make them haughty; if they are relaxed, toil them; if they are united, separate them.

[01.16] Attack where your enemies are not prepared; go to where they do not expect.

[01.17] This strategy leads to victory in warfare, so do not let the enemy see it.

Sun Tzu

 

[Colonialgirl]

From what I gathered watching it, this disaster was caused by General MacArthur's "cocky" attitude by discounting Chinese intervention and the level and competency thereof. The same attitude resulted in Robert E. Lee's defeat at Gettysburg. Patton was a great and aggressive general but he didn't let his mouth overload his butt.
That being said, the brave men who fought and died in this disaster will forever have the upmost respect from me and all Americans.

Some of that "disaster" and blame in the film I suspect is based on a dislike of MacArthur. Do keep in mind too that they WERE aware that the Chinese were stockpiling supplies NORTH of the Yalu in a "NO FLY ZONE";
Hmmm, does that remind one of Vietnam and areas around Hanoi and Hai Phong ? TOO, as I pointed out everything got filtered through the UN and if you don't believe the Russians weren't feeding the information to the Chinese, I have a bridge in New York I'll sell you cheap. I DO BELIEVE that the landing in Inchon went well because it DID NOT go to the UN First. I would NOT call the Chinese "competent" when they sent in 60,000 people, the Second wave was not all completely armed (Sounds like the Russians VS the Germans where the Russians were attacking the Germans in the City; The Second "wave" of Russians was told to pick up the rifles casualties in the first rank dropped) Ditto the Chinese. ALSO keep in mind that they LOST an estimated 30,000 soldiers and many of them FROZE to death or starved.
RE: General Lee; I would NOT call him "cocky", Keep in mind he DID NOT chose the battle field and that "what's his name" Calvary General was LATE getting to the battle.

If MacArthur knew the Chinese were stockpiling supplies and men on the border then why did he walk into a potential trap in horrible weather conditions? He referred to the Chinese as a bunch of "laundry men"...sounds "cocky" to me. :)
As far as Lee is concerned, invading Northern territory doesn't sound like a cautious and wise move when the North out numbered him in terms of men, supplies, and most importantly a superior supply line.

#1. FACE IT, LEE had whipped the North's rear end in every battle and Gettysburg was NOT a battle site of his choosing. Actually his plan to circle NORTH around the union army and surround Washington DC was quite sound, sensible and would have put an end to the war. (I can see all them yankee politicians wetting their long johns if he had managed that.)

Mac did want to continue on into China and handle the problem of Mao at some time, BUT at the time of THIS event, CHINA was NOT actively involved in the war with troops and Mac had no reason or means to expect that they WOULD enter the battle. Given a loss of 50% (30K ) of the Chinese troops, they were a bunch "laundry men" sent in to wage war. Did you miss the part about the "Third Wave" of the "Political Commissars" equipped with Burp guns to prevent their troops from fleeing?

PS: MOST of the casualties in Korea occurred AFTER Truman replaced Mac; During his battles in the Pacific his leadership incurred a much lower percentage of casualties in overcoming the Japanese than any of the other Generals/Admirals.

 

[sliclee]

YOU can't blame a General when the president is telling him what to do!

 

[mohavesam]

I recall reading that Chairman Mao had prepared a plan to lure the bulk of US forces into the large valley north of the Chosin, to nuke tens of thousands at one sitting. Few of the soldiers of the Chosin battles understood how close they came to seeing the 10K degree flash.

Truman understood allright, and it led to firing MacArthur. One of the weapons on the US side was the M65 "Atomic Rifle", in development but leaked to Mao as being deployed in several locations. November 30, 1950 Truman announced to the world he would NOT rule out nuclear weapons in Korea.

We came extremely close to a nuclear exchange.

 

[blackhawknj]

Lee's reasons for heading north in May 1863 were 1. The war was going very badly for the South-Grant had Pemberton bottled up in Vicksburg. 2. Northern Virginia had been picked clean by both armies 3. Lee could defeat the Army of the Potomac-but he could not destroy it.

 

[7p's]

Mao had no plan for battle nor any nukes. Mao was ordering the killing of Chinese people because of many reasons but one reason was starvation. Some Chinese troops in Korea actually starved to death, as they were starving prior to entering Korea.

Mao just kept sending troops into Korea, as Russia was sending military supplies, which wasn't needed as badly as food supplies, which Stalin was sending to keep ole Mao reliant on Russia.

One of the main reasons for the peace accord was the threat from Mao to greatly increase troops into Korea which was a way for Mao to decrease starvation in China. Makes a lot of sense hu???

Truman didn't have what it took to defeat the Chinese (maybe due to some socialist/communist advisors left over from FDR) but ole Mac knew how and if the bomb was needed and used and we would have entered China - Mao's days were numbered. The Chinese people would have seen to that quick enough. We are only beginning now, to see how American politics have assisted in messing this world up - when an individual, who by intentionally using a private unsecured server to conduct USA State Department business for the purpose of enriching herself by exposing all State Department communications with every advanced world government in real time is running for the POTUS and has a very good chance of being elected - ya, something is wrong with that picture.

 

[trebor44]

Here is an interesting read: The Coldest Winter: America and the Korean War, the last book David Halberstam completed, was published posthumously in September 2007.

It does provide some perspective about the participants.

 

[7p's]

Frank Dikotter has a couple excellent books out on China during that time period as well (1945 to 1962). Gives students today in our "public indoctrination" centers (public schools) a totally different understanding of world history taught in some areas/schools.

Different cultures think differently in some ways - in years back, you would be the victor if you had enough soldiers, ability mattered but wasn't always the deciding factor - If the enemy can kill 50 for every one of his dead and if there are 1,000 of them you only need 50,100 men to claim victory in that battle.