Bigbore5
Blackhawk
I shoot both. One gun prefers Colt one likes acp better. Works out great.
Thoughts on .45 Colt & .45 ACP Convertibles
- Thread starter Bob Wright
- Start date
idsubgun
idsubgun
This is exactly the reason SAAMI doesn't sanction 45 Colt *P loads. Too many people have NO idea about different load levels, and all they see is ".45 Colt" on the ammo box, pick up some +P loads and fill their vintage Colt's cylinder with them, and the next thing they know, they are wearing part of the top strap in their forehead.
If you go to SAAMI's web site and read their mission statement, there are three sentences, and in two of those sentences, the words "safety" and "safe" are used. That is their first mission.
Star43
Hunter
Contender is correct about the Safety and even more so the "Liability" reasons. An older gun that blows up or even worse, hurts the user, or others nearby will make it a field day for lawyers to wreck havoc and smile. That's what lawyers do.....
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And even the stronger guns have their limits. About 30 years ago, the local gunsmith I did business with had a .45 Colt-chambered Blackhawk prominently displayed on the counter in his shop. I don't remember the specific model or barrel length, but half of the cylinder was missing & the top strap was bowed way up (but not broken). When I asked about it, he ascribed the destruction to hot reloads, and said, "If you want .44 Mag performance, just buy a .44 Mag."
Guess that wrecked gun was just a "public service announcement"!
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Star43
Hunter
Same thing with a friend of mine's shop about 25 or 30 years ago too. He had a shop and a shooting range downstairs and had a blown up Smith & Wesson revolver prominently displayed with a blown up top strap and blown out cylinder. Same type of scenario. When that happened, he mainly supplied the ammo to be used in his range.
vlavalle
Blackhawk
I find this 'least demoninator' reasoning a bit weak on behalf of SAAMI. For instance, there are rather 'powerful' .45 ACP loads that a lot of pistols could not handle, like the Atomic 1225 fps 185 gr ammo that delivers 616 ft. lbs. Is this not SAAMI sanctioned as well? Then there are quite a few more powerful .45 Super rounds whose power goes up to 735 ft. lbs. These could be fired in most pistols also, and would probably break all the pistols not made to handle .45 Super, which is like 98% of all .45 pistols made! So, I do not 'buy into' the theory that SAAMI is protecting all calibers in all forms of guns. As usual, the responsiblility lies with the user, who has to have an understanding of what he/she is doing.And even the stronger guns have their limits. About 30 ye33ars ago, the local gunsmith I did business with had a .45 Colt chambered Blackhawk prominently displayed on the counter in his shop. I don't remember the specific model or barrel length, but half of the cylinder was missing & the top strap was bowed way up (but not broken). When I asked about it, he ascribed the destruction to hot reloads, and said, "If you want .44 Mag performance, just buy a .44 Mag."
Guess that wrecked gun was just a "public service announcement"!
Furthermore, ammo manufacturers do take responsibility in addresing their hot loads and cautions that go with that. Bufflo Bore is one such manufsacturer, and has big warnings about what kind of gun that can safely shoot their hot .45LC ammo. I own a Ruger .45LC convertible 'flattop', which is weaker than non flattops, and there are clear warnings online by Buffalo Bore about what gun manufacturers and about the smaller framed flattops that should not shoot their hot loads. So, I have adhered to their warning and have shot ony the weakest of the three hot .45LC loads they make. I feel that this should be the industry standard, and not for everyone to rely on whether SAAMI 'seconds' or 'authorizes' some particular ammo, especially since they do not state any caveats at all. There are probably several hot loads in the ammo world that would destroy older or weaker models of guns, whether that be a handgun or a rifle. I saw a vidio on You Tube about a guy who blew up his .50 cal rifle, with standard .50 call BMG ammo. I do not recall the specifics on his .50 cal rifle, but was SAAMI somehow suppose to prevent this too?
Perhaps SAAMI's tenure of only providing safety guidlines for 'any' ammo they approve to be safe for any gun of that calliber is out of date? I wonder how many 10m pistols would blow up with the Underwood 749 ft. lbs. hottest 10mm ammo?
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Don Lovel
Hunter
I am looking for a 45 ACP cylinder to go with my 45 Colt Bisley Vaquero.
I am also looking for an unfluted Bisley cylinder in 45 Colt. I tried out the unfluted cylinder from my 7 1/2" Bisley Blackhawk and it worked good, timed well in my 5 1/2 BV but my 45 Colt cylinder from my BV would not turn on cocking in the 7 1/2 frame gun
I put the unfluted cyl in the 5 1/2 for this picture
But recently sold the 7 1/2 with the correct cyl.
I am also looking for an unfluted Bisley cylinder in 45 Colt. I tried out the unfluted cylinder from my 7 1/2" Bisley Blackhawk and it worked good, timed well in my 5 1/2 BV but my 45 Colt cylinder from my BV would not turn on cocking in the 7 1/2 frame gun
I put the unfluted cyl in the 5 1/2 for this picture
But recently sold the 7 1/2 with the correct cyl.
SAAMI doesn't "sanction" anything. SAAMI presents listings of agreed-upon pressure and dimensional standards for cartridges and their respective chambers. They list various manufacturers that they deem to be usually in compliance with these standards and that provide products in compliance with the data provided. The manufacturers are responsible for their products. If they say a gun is chambered for a specific SAAMI-listed cartridge, that allows the user to check what the standards for that cartridge are, and decide whether or not to comply with those standards. The responsibility lies on the user, not on SAAMI. If you reload your ammo, it's your responsibility to be sure your loads will generate pressures within the SAAMI spec, and if not the results are on you, not on SAAMI.
The fact that SAAMI does not list data for a .45 Colt +P merely indicates that an agreed-upon set of specs has not yet been established for that chambering . . . for all the reasons already pointed out above. Any gun claimed to be good for .45 Colt +P is strictly on the shoulders of its manufacturer. With ammo so claimed, you cannot be sure what the pressures will be unless specifically spelled out. YMMV
Edited to add . . . I checked out some numbers relating to the hot Underwood ammo of 155 grains at 1500FPS producing 775 ft-lbs of energy. Underwood lists no pressure for these loads, nor does it claim it to be safe in any specific gun, only claiming "this high-performance ammunition is field tested using popular, real firearms that our customers are most likely to own." For what it's worth, SAAMI lists maximum pressure for the 10mm ammo at 37,500 PSI, but we have no idea what pressure the Underwood ammo produces.
Also checked out Buffalo Bore's 180-grain bullet at 1350FPS producing 728 ft-lbs. They claim . . .
"These loads bring out the full potential of the 10MM but operate at standard pressures (???) and are safe to use in any standard 10MM pistol. Please don't phone us and ask if these loads are safe in your 10MM: they are safe provided your 10mm is a normal operating pistol in good condition."
The fact that SAAMI does not list data for a .45 Colt +P merely indicates that an agreed-upon set of specs has not yet been established for that chambering . . . for all the reasons already pointed out above. Any gun claimed to be good for .45 Colt +P is strictly on the shoulders of its manufacturer. With ammo so claimed, you cannot be sure what the pressures will be unless specifically spelled out. YMMV
Edited to add . . . I checked out some numbers relating to the hot Underwood ammo of 155 grains at 1500FPS producing 775 ft-lbs of energy. Underwood lists no pressure for these loads, nor does it claim it to be safe in any specific gun, only claiming "this high-performance ammunition is field tested using popular, real firearms that our customers are most likely to own." For what it's worth, SAAMI lists maximum pressure for the 10mm ammo at 37,500 PSI, but we have no idea what pressure the Underwood ammo produces.
Also checked out Buffalo Bore's 180-grain bullet at 1350FPS producing 728 ft-lbs. They claim . . .
"These loads bring out the full potential of the 10MM but operate at standard pressures (???) and are safe to use in any standard 10MM pistol. Please don't phone us and ask if these loads are safe in your 10MM: they are safe provided your 10mm is a normal operating pistol in good condition."
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- Joined
- Dec 9, 2013
- Messages
- 463
Lucked into this Bisley 45 Colt cylinder for my converted Blackhawk Convertible. Also bought a Blackhawk cylinder advertised as a .44 mag, ended up being a .45acp! fits my original Vaquero and functions fine. Both under $100 each, they are out there.
I am loading 45 acp for my blackhawk convertable and having trouble getting them to seat all the way into the cylinder the sized cases fit fine but when I seat the bullet in them they expand enough to not allow complete seating to that the cylinder can turn past the frame before lockup with the chamber what am I doing wrong??
What kind of bullets and crimp type are you using?
Thanks for the reply I am using cast lead 200 gr and no crimp but I read about the crimp on this forum and set a crimp and loaded some rounds and they are functioning better so I think you saved the day thanks to everyone on the forum
vlavalle
Blackhawk
While what you say is probably true, as well as SAAMI's goal, but I contend that most people have no idea what ammo is SAAMI sanctioned and what is not. In particular, those that have no idea about different load levels probably do not even know about SAAMI. I do not see SAAMI as a body that secures people and their safe use of guns in general. I find it to be far better for SAAMI to measure all ammo, and then give guidance where it is needed, rather than just ignoring some manufactured ammo because they do not 'like' it. More real knowledge is better than just covering up some.
vlavalle
Blackhawk
And why not? I would assume from your comment that your self loaded .45ACP ammo you shoot in a .45 pistol. But why not in your .45 ACP cylinder with your .45 Blackhawk convertible? I shoot .45 ACP just as much as .45LC in my Blackhawk convertible. I even shoot the Atomic high powered .45 ACP round (616 ft. lbs.), and I would guess that this ammo would not fly to well in a .45 pistol, but it works great in my revolver.
I hardly ever shoot ACPs in mine, but then I hardly ever shoot 45 Colts in it either...
vlavalle
Blackhawk
I have to ask you then why do you have a .45 convertible at all? Nice holster, but lousy belt! See my gun, holster, and belt! This is my .357 Mag 6 1/2" 1965 Backhawk. My .45 5 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk Convertible is SS, and I keep in its original case. I use to quick draw with my .357 Mag Blackhawk.
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For me, I bought my convertible .45 flattops because it was the only way to get a set of Ruger medium frame .45 Colt flattops
. The .45 ACP cylinders were just along for the ride!My Holster and belt.
And a holster for pants belt for .45s, .44s, .44 specials, and peanut .357 BHs/Vaqueros.
And my .45 Convertibles.
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vlavalle
Blackhawk
Thanks for your response, and pics! But you said earlier that you hardly shoot .45 LC ammo from your .45LC Flattops as well, so what was the driving force behind getting .45 Ruger flattops in the first place? I can also understand your comment about the 'peanut; ,357 BHs, but they are not so peanut in power. Keep in mind that the .357 Mag was the most powerful handgun in the world for nearly 25 years. And with the Ruger .45 flattops, the most powerful round you should soot is the Buffalo Bore 1,216 ft. lb. round. Buffalo make two more powerful .45lC rounds, and all of these powerful .45LC rounds are listed with SAAMI. The max .357 Mag round made is by PPU delivers 907 ft. lbs of ME. So, you can see that the .357 Mag is no slouch, even when compared to the .45lC.For me, I bought my convertible .45 flattops because it was the only way to get a set of Ruger medium frame .45 Colt flattops
My Holster and belt.
And a holster for pants belt for .45s, .44s, .44 specials, and peanut .357 BHs/Vaqueros.
And my .45 Convertibles.
If you are interested (or anyone else), I can send you my free ballistics file that covers 35 handgun calibers, 25 rifle ones, and has over 3,500 entries in this file. Each entry has a link to an online retailer selling that ammo, along with ballistics stats, cost and cost per round, availability, type of bullet, and more, for each ammo linked. If interested, just message me. It is a PDF file. It is too big to view on the tiny screen of a phone.
Because I use 45 Colt in it. I also don't use .22 mag in my 22 convertible, or 38 in any of my .357's.
There's no need.
That was someone else
as I shoot mostly .45 Colt. I just jumped in middle... 
.Because 'finally' after many years, we finally got the .45 Colt on the Ruger medium frame (same aprox. size as the good o' SAA). So with .45 Colt, .44 Special, and .357 all on the medium frame, I've got my perfect pack'n pistols.
As for the peanut .357 ... I can do without the blast and noise of the hot loads. I load it 'down' to around 1000-1100fps for a 158gr SWC. Need more than that go up to the .45 Colt and load it up to around 1100fps (still sub-sonic) with a larger diameter and heavier bullet (~255gr SWC) to handle bigger animals here in Montana. Africa would be a different story, but don't ever plan to go there. Has been on the job since 1873. Will work for me. The woods animals haven't armored up during that time, nor on the human side if ever needed...
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Muley Gil
Blackhawk
I have a 4 5/8" New Model .45 Colt/.45 ACP that I bought about 1993. I THINK I shot 6 or 12 Colt rounds through it right after I got it. The rest have been of the ACP variety. At the time of purchase, I was a police officer with access to an unlimited supply of .45 ACP hardball. My revolver is very accurate with ACP rounds, so I have seen no need to use the Colt cylinder.
idsubgun
idsubgun
This is how I look at it....
It is up to the person shooting, to make sure his firearm is in good working order and that the ammo chosen is the proper ammo.
The saying "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" can be applied to shooting sports. If someone picks up the hottest .45 Colt +P load out there, and loads it in great-grandpappy's 1st Generation Colt Peacemaker, and it kills him, who's fault is it? There is decades of information out there, in print and online, telling you not to do that. So ignorance got him killed, not the 1st Gen Colt or the modern ammo which is safe in the proper firearm.
SAAMI is simply one resource. With the internet we have many. Research is what keeps you safe and lack of research is what gets you hurt.
Shamus2022
Single-Sixer
Congrats on "inventing" the .455 Webley/Eley. Same length as .45 acp and can sometimes be fired in acp guns.
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I have a few Ruger Blackhawks in 45 Colt, and one is a convertible with 45ACP cylinder. I will load and shoot tier 2 Ruger loads in the 23,000 range in 45 Colt, but I pretty much stick to standard pressure 45ACP loads in it, partially because I consider it my "economy" or plinker loads. I've discovered CFE pistol works quite well in it with general 230gn lead bullets.
needsmostuff
Blackhawk
This is MY convertible.
Yup , two different guns. Flattop gets the ACPs. and the full size gets the LCs.
Both actually have extra cylinders but I never swap them around.
Yeah, ,,,,, just too lazy to reset sights all the time.
Yup , two different guns. Flattop gets the ACPs. and the full size gets the LCs.
Both actually have extra cylinders but I never swap them around.
Yeah, ,,,,, just too lazy to reset sights all the time.
I would strongly recommend that anyone interested in how SAAMI works should read the SAAMI site to understand how standards are developed.
https://saami.org/about-saami/
The standards are developed by technical committees consisting of representatives of essentially all the arms and ammo manufacturers reaching essential agreement on the details of the design of the cartridges and their respective chambers for each named round along with the standard operating pressures for each. This is done with an eye on having anyone/everyone interested in any particular chambering aware of the characteristics and performance of these chamberings. New chamberings are added to the standard listings all the time. As soon as the industry saw fit to add a .45 Colt +P type chambering it could be done so, with the description of dimensions and pressures made clear. This new chambering's pressure might very well dictate a different size then the existing .45 Colt if all concerned agree that would be necessary for safe performance in a certian size firearm. This is nothing new. Existing examples are .45ACP, .45Auto Match, .45Colt, .45Glock, .45 WinMag, .454Casull, .460S&WMag, .475Linebaugh, and .480Ruger. There's nothing that says another .45 type chambering couldn't be adopted if the industry deems it worthwhile.
https://saami.org/about-saami/
The standards are developed by technical committees consisting of representatives of essentially all the arms and ammo manufacturers reaching essential agreement on the details of the design of the cartridges and their respective chambers for each named round along with the standard operating pressures for each. This is done with an eye on having anyone/everyone interested in any particular chambering aware of the characteristics and performance of these chamberings. New chamberings are added to the standard listings all the time. As soon as the industry saw fit to add a .45 Colt +P type chambering it could be done so, with the description of dimensions and pressures made clear. This new chambering's pressure might very well dictate a different size then the existing .45 Colt if all concerned agree that would be necessary for safe performance in a certian size firearm. This is nothing new. Existing examples are .45ACP, .45Auto Match, .45Colt, .45Glock, .45 WinMag, .454Casull, .460S&WMag, .475Linebaugh, and .480Ruger. There's nothing that says another .45 type chambering couldn't be adopted if the industry deems it worthwhile.
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SAAMI doesn't rate any ammo by muzzle energy, but by chamber pressure, that force which blows up guns. They list several loadings of various bullet weights fired at various velocities, none of which exceed a specified average chamber pressure. This rating system merely puts the responsibility for pressure onto the ammo manufacturer who wants his product to be listed for all to see and understand. If an ammo manufacturer advertises his product by an accepted nomenclature such as .45 Colt, the gun owner can be assured that said ammo will not exceed the established 14,000 PSI pressure when fired in his gun (assuming the barrel isn't plugged or otherwise mechanically compromised). Gun manufacturers label their arms with the accepted SAAMI cartridge nomenclature so gun owners know what kind of ammo to buy in the knowledge that it has been designed for that specific gun. No mystery involved, and SAAMI isn't penalizing any ammo manufacturer, just presenting information to provide consumers with a known data base upon which to base their purchases.
Bpttom line . . . if you want Buffalo Bore's official position on their ".45 Colt +P" ammo in Ruger evolvers, here is a link to that info . . .
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=153
Note that they admit this ammo exceeds SAAMI's pressure limitations for the standard .45 Colt. The decision is up to you.
Bpttom line . . . if you want Buffalo Bore's official position on their ".45 Colt +P" ammo in Ruger evolvers, here is a link to that info . . .
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=153
Note that they admit this ammo exceeds SAAMI's pressure limitations for the standard .45 Colt. The decision is up to you.
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