UPDATE/ PART 2 -- SR1911 Extractor & Other Issues, Help!

[revhigh]

Next I would try putting an empty fired case in the chamber, and letting the slide slam closed ... Just like chambering a new round.
REV

Come on REVHIGH, a know everything fellow like you should know that a 1911 is a controled feed firearm with a fixed extractor. Unless you are talking about something like a Smith that uses a springloaded extractor.

On a 1911 rounds must feed from a magazine, loading a round directly into the chamber and letting the slide slam home is a good way to ruin an extractor, when the extractor has to pop over the rim of the case.

Right or wrong, Ive done it several times with no ill effect when trying to analyze extraction problems. All my guns are Colts except for a Springfield or two. Never damaged a 1911 in my life handling or shooting it, or caused one to need repair, so your snarky initial comment doesn't affect me in the least.



REV

 

[y2k-fxst]

Right or wrong, Ive done it several times with no ill effect when trying to analyze extraction problems. All my guns are Colts except for a Springfield or two. Never damaged a 1911 in my life handling or shooting it, or caused one to need repair, so your snarky initial comment doesn't affect me in the least.



REV

One good referance to this is mentioned in Jerry Kunhausen's 1911 manuals. Every good 1911 gunsmith I have know also has told me not to load a cartridge into the chamber of a 1911 and make the extractor jump the rim. They have told me doing so along with letting the slide on a 1911 slam shut on an empty chamber are 2 ways to screw up a 1911. You have probably gotten away with loading a single round directly into the chamber do to luck but, to recommend it to someone else that may not have you amount of luck is not a great help to anyone.

 

[Richbaker]

We've got many, many recognized 1911 experts recommending we NOT drop the slide on an empty chamber, or drop the slide on a chambered round, BUT, rev says it's OK...... Who do YOU listen to?? I know MY answer.......

 

[revhigh]

We've got many, many recognized 1911 experts recommending we NOT drop the slide on an empty chamber, or drop the slide on a chambered round, BUT, rev says it's OK...... Who do YOU listen to?? I know MY answer.......

Would you mind supplying links to all these 'many' 'many' experts? Shouldn't be a problem with so many of them out there.

So far I haven't heard or seen ONE expert say that ... let alone many, many ... unless you two are proclaiming yourselves experts. Read what Colt has to say in the link below.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-guns/119505-1911-letting-slide-slam-home-empty-chamber.html

Either way, I didn't say to sit and do it 500 times, .... I said you could try it in the analysis process.

If you guys spent half as much time trying to deduce what was wrong, as you do trying to prove me wrong, when I was trying to help, maybe the OP problem wpuld be solved .....
REV

 

[Brian48]

Had similar issues with the extractor in my new CMD as well. I tuned it and it was better, but the underlying problem was that the claw was still contacting the rim of the case. Although the contact was ever so slightly, it was enough to occasionally bump the cartridge ahead of the claw instead of sliding under it, causing a failure to completely chamber. Finally gave up and replaced the extractor with a Colt OEM one that I happened to have in my box of spare parts. That appears to resolved the issue.

 

[Richbaker]

We've got many, many recognized 1911 experts recommending we NOT drop the slide on an empty chamber, or drop the slide on a chambered round, BUT, rev says it's OK...... Who do YOU listen to?? I know MY answer.......

Would you mind supplying links to all these 'many' 'many' experts? Shouldn't be a problem with so many of them out there.

So far I haven't heard or seen ONE expert say that ... let alone many, many ... unless you two are proclaiming yourselves experts. Read what Colt has to say in the link below.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-guns/119505-1911-letting-slide-slam-home-empty-chamber.html

Either way, I didn't say to sit and do it 500 times, .... I said you could try it in the analysis process.

If you guys spent half as much time trying to deduce what was wrong, as you do trying to prove me wrong, when I was trying to help, maybe the OP problem wpuld be solved .....
REV

9th paragraph down, in the link you posted.......

"If you have a pistol that sports a gunsmith modified, highly tuned, lightened, competition trigger job done on your pistol then you might want to consider not doing it for that reason alone but, nothing will be harmed at all by doing it to a factory COLT."

OK, it does say on a highly tuned, comp. trigger job, which is the ones all the experts say to NOT drop the slide on an empty chamber. I did neglect that part, but, force of habit would demand I not do it to ANY 1911 I own, so as to not mess up the expensively tuned trigger one or more of my 1911s may, or may not, have..... :wink:

If you were paying attention, you may have noticed Iasked about the ejector on page one, and we still haven't gotten an answer to that..... :roll:

 

[1911Tuner]

Howdy guys. Here by invitation for this specific thread. Maybe I can be of some help.

The problems with the gun seems to be a combination of magazines...extractor tune and/or geometry...with maybe the ejector playing a role. I've only examined one Ruger 1911 clone, and I don't remember if it had an extended ejector. That's significant in the failure to eject a live hardball round.

Since the OP is within strike distance, if he's willing to make the trip, I'll take a look at the gun and there's a 99.5% chance of sending him home with a functional pistol...pro bono.

On the letting the slide go with a round in the chamber, forcing the extractor to climb the rim...

It's generally not a good idea with today's extractors because they're a bit too unyielding.

But...

Made to proper specs, including material...to wit: 1090 steel of Austenitic grain size 7 or smaller, hardened and drawn to spring temper...and assuming the correct angle on the nose, it won't hurt anything if done occasionally. It's not the way that the gun was designed to chamber a round and pick up the rim...but as long as it's not done as a matter of habit, it'll be okay.

The pistol was designed with the intent of going to war, and men's lives could depend on it staying in the fight...even as a single shot. In the event of a lost or damaged magazine, a provision was made for emergency/expedient single loading by manually dropping a round into the chamber and letting the slide go. Not recommended or every first round chambered, but allowable in an emergency.

On chambering a round from the magazine by riding the slide forward rather than letting it go at full speed "guaranteeing" a misfeed...well...it depends a lot on the magazine.

With a proper magazine it can be done successfully on every attempt, and it forestalls the dreaded bullet setback...allowing the round to be chambered as much as 3 dozen times without significant setback.

In fact, that's how I test a tweaked pistol for feed reliability. I remove the recoil spring and guide...lock in a loaded magazine...and manually chamber each round by pushing the slide forward with the tip of one finger...briskly...but not even approaching full speed.

Lastly...

There's more to tuning an extractor than just setting tension. A proper extractor will tolerate a lot of tension before it causes return to battery issues. The most important factor is deflection...or the amount of the tensioning wall in the breech area. I like to see .010-.012 inch, with .015 as a maximum. Much more than that, and you're going to have problems, even with light tension.

The bottom line is:

The 1911 pistol was designed to function. If built to correct specs, and fed halfway decent ammunition from a proper magazine, it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice.

Standin' by...

 

[1911Tuner]

While we wait, I dug up a good picture of what's involved in extractor deflection. This is an example of excessive deflection. In this case, it's about twice what it should be. This pistol was exhibiting frequent failures to go to and return to battery. After five minutes spent adjusting it, the problems vanished and the owner went home happy.

 

[revhigh]

Thanks.

No more old wive's tales need apply ......

The 1911 is one of the world's most reliable weapon designs ... As long as the owner keeps his amateur gunsmith hands the hell off of it. Start 'dropping in' all kinds of aftermarket garbage, and all bets are off.

REV

 

[1911Tuner]

No more old wive's tales need apply

Well...Every old wives' tale contains a grain or two of truth.

Even though the correct extractor will tolerate a good bit of abuse, it's still not recommended. There are only two things that'll break and extractor or make one lose tension prematurely. Impact and impact. Force the claw over the rim often enough, and it'll cause a problem eventually because a stress is imposed on the extractor that it was never intended to bear. That it will tolerate it occasionally doesn't change that.

So, the question that begs to be asked is:

Why do it unless it's necessary?

I suggest riding the slide down easy, then forcing the claw over the rim by pushing the slide to battery with the thumb. If the extractor is properly dimensioned, it should go with a little effort. If it refuses to go, or requires excessive force, the nose geometry isn't correct, and letting the slide ram home at full speed imposes a lot of impact on the extractor. Loss of tension or outright failure is possible.

 

[revhigh]

Understood .... But the context that it was recommended was as a one time analytical tool, not something suggested to do repeatedly.

Could it break with ONE occurrence ? Sure it could ... You could also get struck by lightning when you walk out the door.

Same as releasing the slide to chamber a round from a freshly inserted mag with the slide release rather than slingshotting the slide by hand .... What's the difference ? I've done that literally thousands of times with no issues.

Or releasing the slide on an empty chamber at the end of a shooting session with the slide release. Never hurt my guns at all. Not saying YOU should do it though. My guns are all Colts and Springfields, so maybe they're just more robust, and don't mind what would damage other guns.

All I know is you always hear this and that about 1911's, and then people go around spouting off how 'everybody' says you shouldn't do this or that, and it's simply not always true.

It's your gun ... Do whatever you want to, but don't say things just because you've 'heard something' .... and then act as if that's gospel, and claim that 'everybody' says it.

REV

 

[1911Tuner]

But the context that it was recommended was as a one time analytical tool, not something suggested to do repeatedly.

Understood. That's why I brought in the provision for emergency single loading while also explaining what happens in case somebody reads it as "Won't hurt a thing" and does it as a matter of habit.

Or releasing the slide on an empty chamber at the end of a shooting session with the slide release. Never hurt my guns at all

That's one that can cause an expensive problem.

Remove the barrel and slip the slidestop crosspin through the link. Swing the link and crosspin to the in-battery position...and look at the pin's relationship with the lower lug feet. The tips of those lug feet bear the brunt of bringing the slide to a stop. I've seen the practice deform and/or break the feet and crack the lug where it joins the barrel.

I know that it's one of the rules, and that rules have to be followed. Just be aware of the possible consequences.

Back to letting the slide force the extractor...

It's not an issue for the fire control group...not even a fine-tuned setup with a match-grade trigger. The problems with the hammer and sear when the slide slams home is due to trigger bounce, and even the term is misleading. The trigger doesn't bounce. The trigger stands still when the gun is yanked violently forward. Back in the day, when armorers had to work with heavy steel triggers, the standard practice was to hold the trigger rearward before releasing the slide to get the disconnect out of the equation...and hammers didn't follow to half cock...which is what damages finely honed sear crowns.

When a round is chambered, the violent jerk occurs with the slide covering the disconnect and holding it in the disconnected position....so the trigger can't bump it and rotate the sear. It accomplishes the same thing as holding the trigger back when releasing the slide.

It's one of those things that the gun can't do, even though myths about such things seem to hang on. The kaboom from firing out of battery is another myth. It's mechanically impossible for the gun to fire far enough out of battery to blow it up by pulling the trigger. It just can't happen. If the gun blew up, it was caused by an over charge or because some hack destroyed the case head support during a kitchen table ramp'n'throat job.

 

[revhigh]

I understand .... Just looked at one of my 1980's Gold Cups ... The one I shoot the most and have released the slide on an empty chamber the most. The lug and feet look like they just came out of the factory .... No deformation or cracking whatsoever. All my guns are factory Colt .... No aftermarket anything just so you know. This particular gun has well over 10,000 rounds through it, so I've probably done it well over 100 times, no worse for the wear.

I'll probably try to do it less in the future, but I'll probably forget, and realize it after I do it anyway. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if all the older Colt stuff is far better than what comes in guns today.

As I said ... I've never had a failure of any kind with any of my guns, and I have a lot. I load medium loads for the 1911's, but I load all full house 357 loads to run through my 3 Pythons, never had an issue with them either. Some people wont even shoot their Pythons, or will only shoot 38's out of them because they're afraid they'll break. If I have a gun, it's gonna shoot what it was designed to shoot, or I don't want it. I ain't got no safe queens.

It blows my mind how so many people have broken guns these days. I'm glad I bought most of mine 10+ years ago. I won't go near all this plastic fantastic garbage they're selling these days. These LC things are worse than the old Jennings and Lorcins of days gone by. It seems that Ruger is trying to become like the old Taurus with some of the stuff they're putting out. Yeah .... They sell a lot of cheap plastic guns and make a lot of profit for their shareholders .... But look at some of the stuff they're producing ..... It's almost embarrassing. I guess the mighty buck rules these days .... Speaking of Taurus .... They actually produce a few decent models these days.

REV

 

[1911Tuner]

Yeah. A good many guns handle it without issue. A good many don't. After 48 years wrenchin' on these old slabsided pistols, I've seen'em do everything but stand on their hind legs and bark.

And I've seen a buncha deformed and busted lug feet and elongated slidestop pin holes in the old soft frames.

Anyhoo...I mainly wanted to pass along to the OP that he can bring the pistol to me for a fix. It's not exactly across town from Western Carolina, but it ain't an all-day road trip, either.

It's usually somethin' simple with these types of malfunctions.

 

[revhigh]

Glad to have you here 1911tuner ! Good to have an expert to help us out.

Welcome.

REV

 

[revhigh]

Yeah. A good many guns handle it without issue. A good many don't.

I'd be willing to wager that most Colts handle almost anything you throw at them just fine. Springfields too.


REV

 

[JNewell]

Thanks.

No more old wive's tales need apply ......

The 1911 is one of the world's most reliable weapon designs ... As long as the owner keeps his amateur gunsmith hands the hell off of it. Start 'dropping in' all kinds of aftermarket garbage, and all bets are off.

REV

Agreed, with the urgent caveat that in order to be so it needs to be made to JMB's specs. There are way too many people out there who think that every conceivable spec and dimension can be tightened up to single ten-thous, that the pistol can be made to shoot an inch at 50 yards, and will all the while continue to run like a Timex (used to). It may be so, but not in my experience, and years of posts on the internet do not provide a lot of comfort that anyone's perfected that change in the original design.

 

[revhigh]

Thanks.

No more old wive's tales need apply ......

The 1911 is one of the world's most reliable weapon designs ... As long as the owner keeps his amateur gunsmith hands the hell off of it. Start 'dropping in' all kinds of aftermarket garbage, and all bets are off.

REV

Agreed, with the urgent caveat that in order to be so it needs to be made to JMB's specs. There are way too many people out there who think that every conceivable spec and dimension can be tightened up to single ten-thous, that the pistol can be made to shoot an inch at 50 yards, and will all the while continue to run like a Timex (used to). It may be so, but not in my experience, and years of posts on the internet do not provide a lot of comfort that anyone's perfected that change in the original design.

Yup, it's amazing what can be done with the platform. You can make a one inch fifty yard gun, but it costs a fortune, and reliability suffers. A nice $1000 Colt Gold Cup will shoot into an inch or so at 25 yards, and that's good enough for me.

REV

 

[Richbaker]

Tuner, Nice to see you here. Weren't you responsible for the Checkmate "Hybrid" mags? How about an explanation for the Ruger giuys?

 

[1911Tuner]

That's a pretty tall order, Rich. Not the explanation so much as fighting the flames post-facto...but I'll give it a shot.

Basically, the "Hybrid" design combines the best of both extremes in feed lip configurations...the full tapered, gradual/late release GI "Hardball" magazine and the parallel, timed, early/abrupt release of the "Wadcutter" magazine.

And the description of the function is a little confusing, because the tapered lips actually start releasing the cartridge earlier, and effect the final release a little later than the parallel lips o the wadcutter design.

The tapered lips also cause the cartrige to perform an interesting trick in allowing the rear to move up as the round moves forward, decreasing the angle of entry into the chamber.

But that's not the most important thing.

Because the rear is moving upward, the extractor picks it up while the bullet nose is entering the chamber, and while the rear end is still captive in the magazine, so the cartridge never gets the opportunity to escape full control from the time the slide hits it until it's chambered. By the time final release is accomplished, it's almost completely under the control of the extractor.

The hybrid design has a timed release point, much like the wadcutter design...but it comes a tick later and is less abrupt.

By the way..."Hybrid" is a term that I coined while I was corresponding with Check Mate, and they use it in their catalog...but it's not my design. Colt released it around the time that the Series 80 pistols appeared. Up until that point, their magazines were the GI Hardball types, likely leftovers from the post WW2 expected contract that never materialized. After that, all Colt's 7-round magazines were/are hybrids, and all their vendors...presently CMI...Metalform...and OKAY...are made to their specifications. Until recently, the 6-round Officer's Model magazines had hybrid lips, but I've also seen a few with wadcutter lips...so I don't know why the change came, or on whose suggestion. I suspect that money had something to do with it.

I consider the "Hybrid" 7-round magazines to be the best out there. I wish I had a dollar for every finicky Jammin' Jenny" that I've "fixed" by doing no more than handing the disgruntled owner a few of those magazines and having him try again...only to watch the look on his face as his feed/RTB issues disappear.