Ultimate 9mm target pistol

[22/45 Fan]

I have a Les Baer Premier II 1911 in 9 mm and it routinely groups in 1" to 1-1/2" at 25 yards with my nothing special reloads. Feed and ejection reliability has been excellent for over 2000 rounds. They aren't cheap but building up a 1911 from parts can get very expensive very fast even if the base pistol was fairly low cost.

I obviously agree that the 1911 platform is the way to go for a true target pistol. Very little comes close to the quality of the trigger pulls that can be obtained.

The only other pistol I considered was the S&W 952 which has a stellar reputation for accuracy and a great trigger. Unfortunately, Smith won't (or can't) put an ambidextrous safety on it and, being left-handed, that was a must have for me.

 

[cwo3usmc]

I concur with the 1911 platform for target. I have a Springer fully loaded and a STI Trojan, both in 9mm and they are both great shooters. Mind you, these are NOT the GI issue versions with their loose fit, shoot anything and barndoor accuracy I carried for years on active duty! The Springer is cheaper, but STI is worth the extra. The slide rails feel like they are on roller bearings. It is tight, extremely accurate, and hasn't failed on any diet. I have the tirggers on both down to 3# with a crisp, clean break...doesn't get any better for target shooting. I also have a Springer EMP which is excellent, and while extremely accurate and flawless functioning, I don't consider its smaller package the idea target weapon. YMMV

 

[Leucoandro]

I don't participate much in this section, but have been thinking about this recently so figured I might as well ask here.

I'm looking for a high quality target 9mm.

What would be your suggestion for the most accurate, comfortable, ergonomic 9mm target pistol?

Well, you could get a Thompson Center Contender in 9mm. I have always found them to be very accurate.


Charlie

 

[Yosemite Sam]

Funny you should mention that. I have a Contender, and am expecting a .223 barrel for it soon. It's currently set up with a .22 LR barrel. Getting a 9mm is an option. As is an older Bisley Blackhawk .38/.357 with the 9mm conversion cylinder, if I could find one. I love the Bisley, and have three in other calibers.

The STI might be an option, too. I've got a half dozen 9s right now, and would consider selling a few to finance a new one, that would presumably take the place of those sold. Been looking for the "perfect" one for a while now...

I think that before doing that I may go ahead and do some work on (and with) the BHP. I originally got it because that was the platform JB designed for the 9mm, much as he designed the 1911 for the .45. I like to go with proven designs, and have not had luck trying to make things work as not designed. I know the 9mm 1911s have improved over the years, but I've still got this niggly worry. Not that the occasional FTF is that big a deal in a target gun...

My DW .45 feels like it's on greased ball bearings, too. It's a nice feeling when you get a pistol that really does feel like some quality went into it. My older S&W revos are like that, too.

-- Sam

 

[Snake45]

The P35 is a much more...what's the word? Subtle? Nuanced? Design than the 1911. There are things about it that are much better than the 1911 design, and things about it that aren't nearly as good.

Mine has worn a Ciener .22 conversion since they became available in the spring of 2004. One of my favorite shooting/plinking/training pistols in that guise; I simply love it. Not my first choice in a defensive handgun though (not that we were talking about that anyway).

 

[Yosemite Sam]

P35... I forgot that was another name for the BHP, and had to check out the P38 reference. That reminded me that I know of a minty P5 for sale for a good price. Probably wouldn't be my "ultimate 9mm", but would make an interesting addition to the collection.

Always the problem: More, or better?

-- Sam

 

[Snake45]

I'd love to have a P5, and/or a P88. Walther hasn't produced anything since then that has interested me in the slightest.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

The one I know of is real clean, comes with a box and 2 mags, and is well under $500. It's being offered on a forum, so if you're interested, let me know and I'll forward you the details.

I'm tempted myself, and have been since I first saw it two months ago, but I need "yet another 9mm" like I need a hole in the head. Heck, there's a W. German P226 sitting in my dealer's case at an attractive price that I'd like, too. I'm poking around looking for a good target gun, not just a good gun. The P5 does have panache, uniqueness, and styling on its side...

-- Sam

 

[kujiin]

Is it safe to say the "taurus" name here? if so I have the 24/7 OSS in 9mm with 5.25 inch barrel. Really an accurate pistol, one can be had if you look for about $350..


Kuj

 

[Tallinthesaddle]

For some $$$$ H&K USP Tactical.
Quality firearm.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

Well, I went to the range this past weekend with another RF member (hiya, Quarryman), and between us we brought (6) 9mm pistols, (2) .223 Contenders, an AR-15, and several revolvers, including (of course) a couple of Rugers.

I did some fairly specific testing of the 9mms, all shooting the same ammo from a rest at 25 yards. I had one each: AR-24, Browning HP, Glock 17L, Sig P228, Sig P225, and an XDm (the only one that wasn't mine).

In most cases I got about the same ratio of shots in the black vs. not. The BHP gave me a couple of bullseyes, but that could be as much luck as precision/repeatability. The Sig P225 gave me the tightest group, followed closely by the P228. The Sigs do feel most comfortable to me. While all of these pistols (except the G17L) have fixed sights, the AR-24 was the only one that required Kentucky windage to keep it on the paper at 25 yards. This means that it ended up with the worst group, as I found myself experimenting, trying to find a good aim point.

Actually, that's not quite accurate: The XDm gave the worst group. Possibly because I was least used to that gun, or possibly due to the trigger, but I definitely did worst with this one than any of the others.

The G17L proved no more accurate in this test than the others. In fact, its group size was not among the best. Like other shooters, I find the molded-in finger grooves are in the wrong places for my fingers. Worse, it pushes the inside of the last knuckle of my shooting hand into the frame at an angle which is just right for the "vicious" recoil of the 9mm round to actually hurt my hand. I have a Hand-All on it, but it's in the wrong spot to do much good. I've had better luck with the accuracy of this one in times past, and am wondering if shooting it from a rest detracted from it's best feature: That long slide that helps the shooter hold the gun steady when shooting off hand. That is, I'm saying it may compare better to the others if they're all shot off hand, and it loses that advantage when they're all shot from a rest.

The Contenders were great. Somewhat less felt recoil than a .44 mag revolver. My old style gun has a 14" ported barrel on it, compared to Q-man's 14" non-ported G2. With this caliber I (we) could finally see the difference porting makes. Quite a bit more muzzle flip and felt recoil on the non-ported one.

Of course my trusty S&W 14-3 (6" .38 special target revolver) blew all the shell chuckers aways in the accuracy and grouping dept. That's the gun to go to when I want to "thread the needle". Now if I could just find a semi I shoot as well.

At this time I'm still absorbing and analyzing the data from this shoot, but I'm leaning towards some trigger work and adjustable sights for the BHP. Maybe the C&S wide trigger and non-ambi safety.

That W. German Sig P226 in my dealer's case is still calling to me, too. I may just have to jump on it and admit that I like collecting Sigs as much as I do Rugers and S&Ws...

-- Sam

 

[marlin1881]

Great feedback on the shooting results.

I've got an XDm and from the factory, it is a nice gun, but I rate it with the Glocks on trigger pull. I've not yet seen a striker-fired gun with a good factory trigger. When compared to a SA/DA gun in SA mode, there isn't a good comparison to be made.

I've put in a Springer Precision trigger system in my XDm, and it has to be fitted to the gun. Takes some work as it's not all that easy, but it is do-able. With this triger system, I now shoot the XDm quite well. My trigger pull is now a relatively crisp 4.5lbs. No, it never will compare to a finely-tuned 1911 trigger. But, I've shot some off-hand groups at 15 yards using my 147gr cast handloads, at ~1.5". I think it can shoot.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that this particular G17L has a nicer trigger than any Glock I've ever shot, including those that I've done the whole 3.5# disconnector/light spring/polish thing. But it's still only a "relatively" good trigger, in that it feels like a finely-tuned staple gun. Those preloaded striker triggers just have inherent mush.

That's why I'm going to focus on the HP, and maybe the Sig. They still employ lever type triggers as opposed to the straight-back push of the 1911 style (which I contend is the basis of the potential quality of that action), but they should be able to be cleaned up nicely.

I'm going to try the springs-and-polishing route on the BHP first, and if I can't clean it up acceptably will probably send it off for some smithing.

-- Sam

 

[asp762]

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that this particular G17L has a nicer trigger than any Glock I've ever shot, including those that I've done the whole 3.5# disconnector/light spring/polish thing. But it's still only a "relatively" good trigger, in that it feels like a finely-tuned staple gun. Those preloaded striker triggers just have inherent mush.

That's why I'm going to focus on the HP, and maybe the Sig. They still employ lever type triggers as opposed to the straight-back push of the 1911 style (which I contend is the basis of the potential quality of that action), but they should be able to be cleaned up nicely.

I'm going to try the springs-and-polishing route on the BHP first, and if I can't clean it up acceptably will probably send it off for some smithing.

-- Sam

You should still look at the Walther P5, you'll be surprised at the accuracy level of such a short barrel, also the HK P7. Still its hard to beat the HP. Another you might look for is a run of Colt GoldCups that were produced for the European market back in the early 90's. All stainless steel heavy barreled 9mm. Unfortunatly there was only 500 produced, and the Europeans turned their noses up at these, and they got sold through the Rod&Gun clubs for military members.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

It is interesting to see shorter barreled guns that can shoot better than longer ones. I had an XD subcompact that was exceptionally accurate for such a small gun.

I'd probably check out that Walther, but I just picked up the W. German P226 that I mentioned earlier in this topic. I've got a good little collection of Sigs now, mostly German, and this one was a good addition. Now I just want to see if I can make it into a target pistol.

Anybody want a G17L or AR-24?

-- Sam

 

[revhigh]

The Sig P225 gave me the tightest group, followed closely by the P228.

I don't know how they do it, but Sigs are ALWAYS at the top of the heap for accuracy. I love it when people who have never shot or held a Sig proclaim that you're a snob if you praise one. Sigs are spectacular pistols, and if you can buy them used at the right price are about the same price as a new SR9. Between the two, there's absolutely no comparison for accuracy, reliability, and workmanship. I'd rather have a used Sig than a new Ruger auto any day. I bought a P226 and a P225 that were both over twenty years old, looked brand new, and they are the most accurate 9MM's that I've ever shot, followed by my CZ75B's. I'm surprised that the AR24 (75B) clone didn't do better. I guess if you want a 75B to be accurate, you need a brand name CZ.

REV

 

[Yosemite Sam]

^

I like the older Sigs. Like many, the company has done cost cutting and made some pretty silly moves lately, and the modern product, QC standards, and customer service have suffered. Their guns are still accurate and generally well made, but "luck of the draw" has entered the equation when buying new ones. IMO, of course. I own five now, so I can have an opinion. Only one of mine is the modern American Nitron/stainless design (my P220), and even that's at least a few years old (internal extractor).

My AR-24 isn't a bad gun at all. In fact, no other gun fits my hand as well, semi auto or revolver. It has a very sculpted look and feel to it, like it was cut out of solid steel, which it was. The big problem for me is that it didn't catch on in the market, so there is absolutely no aftermarket support for it. Even Armalite can't get some parts, as the gun is made in Turkey. There's an adjustable sight model and a fixed sight model; I have the latter. The slides are milled differently, and the factory sights aren't available anyway. Smiths that work on CZs can't get unique parts for the AR, so their hands are somewhat tied. I've heard some EAA Witness parts (another CZ clone) will fit the AR-24.

CZ provides great support for their own guns, and the aftermarket is there, I just wish the fit and finish on the 75 line were a little nicer. They've also become less of a bargain recently, due to the falling dollar. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the company, and own two 452 rifles presently; It's just that I'm used to $375-$425 75Bs, not $525 ones... Not to mention the $1150 TS model; Now you've exceeded the cost of a Sig Stainless Elite! Starting to make that $1K 9mm 1911 look cheap.

-- Sam

 

[asp762]

The Sig P225 gave me the tightest group, followed closely by the P228.

I don't know how they do it, but Sigs are ALWAYS at the top of the heap for accuracy. I love it when people who have never shot or held a Sig proclaim that you're a snob if you praise one. Sigs are spectacular pistols, and if you can buy them used at the right price are about the same price as a new SR9. Between the two, there's absolutely no comparison for accuracy, reliability, and workmanship. I'd rather have a used Sig than a new Ruger auto any day. I bought a P226 and a P225 that were both over twenty years old, looked brand new, and they are the most accurate 9MM's that I've ever shot, followed by my CZ75B's. I'm surprised that the AR24 (75B) clone didn't do better. I guess if you want a 75B to be accurate, you need a brand name CZ.

REV

I agree, I have both the P226, and P225 both older WestGerman marked and the import marks are for Herndon Va. They are extreamly accurate, and are only overshadowed by my HPMKIII.

 

[marlin1881]

I mentioned in an earlier post, that I was going to try some Hodgdon Longshot powder, as it seemed to have the burning rate to allow for "full" load density, and at the high end of velocity scale. And obviously, it had to be accurate as well. And, did I mention "no leading"? Yes, I wanted it all.

I returned from a successful range trip today, and Longshot worked exactly as I suspected. I only tried 147gr cast RN bullets today, and at 15 yards, stuck those bullets right in there, side by side, often just making a larger hole.

To get that kind of performance, I did have to crank up the powder charge close to max as stated on the Hodgdon website. Lower powder charges just didn't hold the tight groups, and it didn't burn as clean as I was looking for. But, as I increased the powder charge, the loads started dialing in. With load development using some other powders, there seems to be just some random sweet-spot. With this powder, it pointed the direction I needed to go, and it got there right at the top range of the max load.

I've got some 124gr cast, and 124/147gr jacketed bullets to try next. I'll report back after the next trip to the range. www.hodgdon.com

 

[Yosemite Sam]

Well, I went back out to the range yesterday, armed with pretty much the same collection from last time, plus the new-to-me P226. I shot the P226, P228, BHP, AR-24, and G17L at two targets each; One target with CCI Blazer aluminum cased ammo, one with a UMC "personal defense" JHP load. Both loads were 115gr.

First impression: Using Blazer ammo for accuracy testing is/was a mistake. It is simply not consistent enough to get reliable results. In every gun the UMC ammo grouped better than the Blazer. In most it was the difference between having all the shots in the black vs. not.

Next: I was right in an earlier analysis of my shooting. At 10 yards I am crazily consistent and accurate. I can make "one big hole" with a number of guns. Move it out to 25 yards, my eyes lose focus on that 1/2" aim point, and my groups open up disproportionally as the distance increases. Even the AR-24 shines at 10 yards, and yet it again turned in the worst performance at 25.

Third: I was right about the G17L losing whatever advantage it has when shooting from a rest. Offhand, that long slide/barrel and extra weight help keep you steady and on target. Offhand (at 10 yards), it shoots exceptionally well. From a rest (at 25 yards) it's no better than anything else. In fact, I wonder if when rested, it's possible that I'm exerting enough pressure against the rest to deform the plastic frame a bit. If I'm torquing it out of true by "resting" it too hard, it would certainly affect accuracy (same effect as leaning on a non-free floated rifle barrel).

Of the nines I shot the P228 best today, which is nice, considering it's my primary carry gun at this point. I did as well with it as I did with the S&W 14-3 .38 revolver, amazingly. The P226 was a close second, and that was only because the stock sights suck. The bar-dot sight picture doesn't provide much repeatability. It also shoots high at 25 yards. Again though, offhand at 10 yards it is amazingly accurate.

Finally, the BHP is going to be darn near unbeatable once I get the trigger weight down. I've ordered a C&S wide trigger, 2.5lb trigger pull reduction spring kit, single-sided safety, and adjustable sights for it. Should have it all together by the next range visit.

I did realize that despite some of the results I've had I do still really like that Glock G17L. It's beautifully made and finished, for a Glock, and I've owned 3-4 of their pistols. I may still have to sell the AR-24 to fund some of my other projects, but it's getting hard to turn my babies loose any more.

And I got everything cleaned last night, too!

-- Sam

Crappy pic, but here's the family photo from yesterday: