Toklats, Buffalo Bore, and Double Tap Ammo

[Rumrunner]

Are the 45 cases shorter than the 454? If so this could be like shooting 22 shorts in a cylinder and then shooting 22 LR. The shorts cause a buildup where the cases end in the cylinder. If that is your case I am not sure how many 45 colts it would take to cause a buildup.

I bet that 400 gr load will get your attention.

 

[Slenk]

firing .38 spl. in a ..357 mag. will do the same thing . I doesn't take nanny.

 

[LaneP]

If you're certain your chambers are clean, stuck cases are almost a certain sign of excess pressure.

Examine fired primers from a normally extracting case and those from the stuck cases. If the stuck case primers look flattened or appear distorted or "flowing", I'd not use that particular ammo in that particular pistol.

 

[WIL TERRY]

OKAY.....I'LL ASK....what is a "Toklat"?

Whatever it is , it has just told you that THAT 454 ammunition is too high pressured for the chamber in THAT gun under the cicumstances it found itself. IT might be just dirt in the chamber but do NOT bet the ranch on it.

 

[dlhredfoxx]

I've got a 7.5" SRH in 454 that does the same thing with that DT load… I think the loads are too high pressure and the brass is working… and I've never shot .45 Colt out of that gun so it's not carbon residue in this instance… And yes, .45 Colt brass is shorter than .454 so it will leave behind carbon rings that can "squeeze" the 454 loads a bit creating potential pressure spikes and brass bulging inside the cylinders… I try not to shoot shorter brass in those guns where that's an option (e.g. .38spcl/.357mag, 44spcl/.44mag, .460S&W/.454c/.45colt, 480ruger/475Linebaugh, etc… you get the picture… if you are going to do it, clean the cylinders judiciously until they are shiny like a mirror before moving up to full length brass in the same gun. Or shoot the mags first, then go to the shorties if shooting in the same session… it's like eating hors devours at a cocktail party, turn the celery around before you double dip it back in the ranch dressing! Foxx...

 

[dougader]

He hasn't fired the DT load yet. It's the "Buffalo Bore 325 gr 454 Casull ammo [where] the cases got stuck in the cylinder."

High pressure. Dirty chamber from firing shorter 45 Colt ammo previously could be part of the problem as well.

 

[mr.deerstalker]

its a gun made for Alaska only, about 500 made, only shipped to Alaskans,

great guns, named after a blond Grizzly bear.

scott

 

[AKBman]

I once read an article on sticky cases in the Ruger 454, if the loads are at or near max, due to the elasticity of the proprietary alloy the cylinder is manufactured from, it can cause sticky extraction. Early on it was a big problem with Hornady brass, and I experienced it myself, never had a sticky case when using Starline brass. Wish I still had that Ruger. So it would appear, that even if the loads aren't over maximum, you may still have sticky extraction, most ammunition companies now don't load to maximum, mostly due to the fear of bullets jumping the crimp, I know Buffalo Bore keeps it down for this reason.

 

[LaneP]

The .454 will develop excess pressure if the bullet is too soft and swages up in the barrel throat too fast. This is a known problem with people trying to drive soft jacketed bullets intended for use at .45 Colt velocities in full charge .454's.

However I am certain the premium ammo makers would have already accounted for that and only use suitable bullets.

I have never fired a factory loaded .454 having been set up for loading it since I got my SRH. I stick at or near starting loads with it and they are plenty for me at that level with zero pressure problems to date.

In fact weather permitting, I'm going to the range Friday morning to test out a 300 grain XTP over 29 grains of Lil Gun in brand new Win brass lit by a CCI small magnum rifle primer. At the same time also zeroing and testing a brand new Bushnell Elite scope on it. Can't wait!

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Try Buffalo Bore again and talk to Tim Sundles, the owner. He's very good to talk with and knowledgeable.

 

[Montelores]

"Please read the link and you'll understand. Dangers of Pure Lead 'Cowboy' Bullets"


Where is the link and what is this reference?

Thanks -

Monty

 

[Boxhead]

I guess I do not see a reason to ramp up a 454 beyond standard book loads and factory ammunition. In fact, I do not see a reason for the 454 but that is another story and off topic.

 

[Varminterror]

So a few thoughts...

Leading in a bore can and WILL indeed cause sticky cases, even in revolvers. So will copper fouling, but copper fouling builds a lot more slowly than leading, and it's a lot higher lubricity than lead, so it takes a LOT more rounds to start building problems with copper fouling. BUT, yes, indeed, leading in the bore can cause excessive pressures, especially when you're shooting higher velocity rounds like .44mag or .454C. Been there, done that. Had cases sticking in a .44mag SBH that traditionally always drops the rounds without the use of the ejector rod. Noticed a few flattened primers, remembered I'd been burning through some hardcast as I was shooting that revolver for Cowboy Action Long Range side matches. I scrubbed the bore, no more issues. It does happen. Happened on a regular basis in my Marlin 1894's, 1895's, and H&R Buffalo Classic shooting lead in high volume for Cowboy Action Shooting, just never thought of it in non-closed breech weapons until my SBH started acting up.

Granted, you didn't mention shooting a TON of lead yourself, and I can't imagine Ruger or Talo put THAT many rounds down your Toklat (my bore didn't show any lead nor copper when I got my Toklat), to have produced a constricted bore for you... So on to my next point...

Beyond that, sticky cases happen to Ruger SRH's in .454C and .480R. It just happens. I've noticed it worse with .454C than I did with the .480, but it does happen. Polishing your chamber won't fix it, but can help, in general. As has been mentioned, the proprietary alloy that Ruger uses in the SRH 454 and 480 cylinders has a high elasticity. It's incredibly strong, but comparably, it's quite "stretchy". The case obturates to fill the chamber, the chamber obturates slightly, the case stretches with it, but the brass doesn't spring back, the cylinder does, boom, sticky case. Not surprisingly, the heavier loads under heavier bullets tend to produce more stuck cases. I have had to use a poly mallet to eject stuck cases in my 7.5" SRH more than a few times - that poly mallet found its way into my range bag because I needed it to remove cases from my .480R 7.5" and Alaskan SRH's.

I've also had some sticky cases with the heavier factory loads, but at the price of factory fodder, I rarely shoot it.

I've had luck in my SRH's with using a bit of case lube when shooting at the range. About 1 in 5 loadings keeps the cases falling out. Naturally, don't add too much otherwise you'll get deformations. I just stick an RCBS lube pad on the loading bench, set 6 rounds on it, roll them over once and back, and load it up. Ain't an ideal system, but it works well enough.

I lube the living daylights out of any lead bullets I'm shooting before reloading. Seems to help reduce lead fouling, at least in my head

Unfortunately, you're unlikely to notice flattened primers in the 454C as an early indicator of excessive pressure. The 454C uses small rifle primers specifically for the stronger primer cup. Presents a challenge in terms of "light" firing pin strikes in the 454C SRH's (doesn't happen in the .44mag's 'cuz they use pistol primers!), as well as a bit of a "numb" primer when it comes to pressure signs. Especially in loadings that might use magnum SR primers with a thicker still cup. I've seen flattening of the headstamp impressions in 454C without giving what I would have called a "flattened primer". It's almost scary when you lose such an important safety check, definitely unnerved me when I started shooting 454's ~10yrs ago.

I'd highly recommend that you slug your throats. Ruger is notorious for running tight throats. I haven't slugged my own Toklat yet, but I'm planning on going ahead with a ream job on it anyway (also chamfering the chambers and reaming the forcing cone). I've never bought a Ruger Revolver (out of over 50 of them) that had proper chamber throats for a full cylinder.

Also, if you intend to continue shooting lead, even hardcast bullets, you'll be doing yourself a favor to ream your forcing cone to 11degrees. At the pressures the 454C generates, frankly lead just isn't hard enough, so it'll lead in a 454C SRH faster than most other weapons. I hate lead in general, but in my Alaskan 454's I see leading after a box or two that looks like my 45colt or 44mag Cowboy action revolvers after hundreds of rounds. The lengthened forcing cone helps reduce that fouling a lot. I've never noticed that it hurts accuracy with jacketed bullets thereafter either, so really it's a benefit with no downside.

I know that's not much help, but I'd really say I'm not surprised to hear you had sticky cases. I also won't be surprised to hear if you get light pin strikes and misfires. If you DO start seeing misfires, Bowen Classic Arms sells 30 and 40lb mainsprings (you WILL want a lighter trigger return spring in that case) and they also offer extended firing pins - but be warned, it's a $100-150 job for a $15 part to replace the firing pin in an SRH. No idea what BCA charges, had one done locally and did another myself (gotta admit, I wouldn't do it again myself). If you're good with calipers, you can also hone the tip of the hammer to maximize your firing pin protrusion, but be careful that you don't produce a hammer "pinch" on the transfer bar. The hammer stand off needs to be a few thousandths taller than the transfer bar such that it can release when the trigger is released (becomes more of an issue when you stick that lighter trigger return spring and that heavy 40lb hammer spring in your SRH!!). You'll also need to verify that the drilled "dimple" in the hammer face is still deep enough such that the hammer doesn't contact the firing pin when the transfer bar isn't raised, again, a few thou gap.

If you do think you have a problem batch of ammo, I'd recommend you go through the process of slugging your chamber throats, then invest in a small powder scale and pull the bullets, weigh the charges, and check the diameters on the bullets. Another easy answer would be to try a different lot number of the same brand, but since you seem pretty adverse to spending any more money on their stuff, that's probably out of the question.

 

[Varminterror]

Hardcast is still lead, especially when you consider the high pressures and extreme velocities the 454C puts it under. Not saying that your issue has anything at all to do with leading, but it CAN AND DOES HAPPEN.

Read the rest of my post. There are a lot of other reasons as to why you saw sticky cases, and frankly, not all of them have solutions with the SRH's. That's why FA only builds them in 5 shots.

Ruger will have you send it in, might replace your cylinder - might not, and even if they do, the new cylinder is likely to have sticky cases in heavy 454's also. That's just what SRH 454's do. A guy doesn't have to live in bear country to know a thing or two about 454's.

 

[Yermo]

I wonder why Hornady makes 300 gr. XTP bullets and 300 gr. XTP Magnum bullets in the same size. What is the difference? Are only the latter supposed to be used in .454 Casull, and would using plain XTP bullets cause sticky extraction in the SRH .454?

 

[LaneP]

I wonder why Hornady makes 300 gr. XTP bullets and 300 gr. XTP Magnum bullets in the same size. What is the difference? Are only the latter supposed to be used in .454 Casull, and would using plain XTP bullets cause sticky extraction in the SRH .454?

That's what I think differentiates them, though going to the Hornady website, it's really not clearly spelled out that I can see when looking at the two.

One interesting note: Hornady sells loaded .454 ammo using the 300 grain XTP Mag at an advertised velocity of 1650 fps in a 7.5" vented test barrel. That is right at the posted velocity for the starting load using that XTP bullet and Lil Gun. That Lil Gun starting load generates only 39,800 CUP which is WELL below max published .454 operating pressures.

I've never had a stuck case with the starting load for W296 or H110 using either 300 grain XTP's or two different 325 grain cast flat point I've shot, one being a Cast Performance commercial hard cast and the other a Lyman flat point gas check I cast myself out of Lyman #2 alloy.

I tend to put credence in what others have stated across the web, and that is the .454 already operates at extremely high pressure due to its case volume and in some pistol designs and when operating at the far end of the pressure spectrum you are simply going to get some stuck cases (at least in the SRH), despite the fact you are still comfortably within SAAMI pressure guidelines.

I'm seeing a trend by ammo loaders to back off the commercial .454 loads for precisely this reason. Regardless, I doubt there's any animal that will tell you it noticed the difference between a 300 grain XTP going 1650 fps and one going 100 fps faster but is generating nearly an additional 10,000 CUP to do so.

Later on today if it's not pouring rain I'm hoping to sight in my SRH using the 300 grain XTP Mag and 29 grains of Lil Gun, and though I won't know till then, I'm betting I will have zero issues with pressure or stuck cases because I'm right at Hornady starting data for that combo.

Also intend to chronograph it and do a 100 yard group test.

 

[AKBman]

Loads that would have sticky extraction in my SRH have zero issues in my FA, so I imagine the elastic nature of the cylinder steel is the issue, perfectly safe, but a little annoying. Never had issues when using top loads in 45 Colt brass, even with 5 shot load data, but it still isn't at the pressures the 454 is at. I have found the 454 to be a very versatile hunting round, and the accuracy makes range sessions a joy, I shoot my 454 more than any two of my other revolvers.

 

[MaxP]

I spoke with Ruger Technical Support today and it was explained to me that if I had been using ammunition made by Federal, Hornady, or Winchester the cases would not have gotten stuck. In the future, I will stay away from Buffalo Bore ammunition all together. Besides, the first fifty dollar box of that stuff that I bought is going to last me a lifetime cause I am not putting that crap in my revolver anymore.

Thanks for all the assistance guys.

Enough said.

There's nothing wrong with Buffalo Bore ammunition. It's quite good in most cases. He uses premium components (love Starline brass). I know for a fact that Tim Sundles loads his 360 grain load down considerably below SAAMI max for reliability's sake. I have run all manner of factory .454 ammo through the various .454 SRHs I have owned and have never experienced anything adverse.

 

[Montelores]

A related question from someone who is studying to re-load -

Is there a limitation (fps, caliber, etc.) for suggested use of lead bullets vs. hard cast?

To re-phrase: Will hard cast function in certain hotter loads where lead will be too soft?

Thanks, and I hope this isn't too far off-topic -

Monty

 

[LaneP]

A related question from someone who is studying to re-load -

Is there a limitation (fps, caliber, etc.) for suggested use of lead bullets vs. hard cast?

To re-phrase: Will hard cast function in certain hotter loads where lead will be too soft?

Thanks, and I hope this isn't too far off-topic -

Monty

The question you pose isn't easy to answer without considering many variables including bore/bullet diameter, powder used, velocity of the load and even lubricant.

But the "rule of thumb" is the higher the velocity sought (i.e., above 900-1000 fps or so) the harder the bullet surface needs to be to properly stabilize in the rifling of the barrel.