jstanfield103
Blackhawk
Deleted
SR9/ SR9c & SR40/SR40c Trigger Reset Fix.
- Thread starter jstanfield103
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Sal1950
Blackhawk
Here ya go again beating up on the tweakers.revhigh said:
It's not that the guns are bad, it's just that there's never been a production gun made that can't be improved on by a good tuner.
REV You gonna tell us that none of your guns have even had a trigger job done in it?
If your scared to work on your gun or don't have any mechanical aptitude just say so. :lol:
Sal
jstanfield103
Blackhawk
Deleted
Cheesewhiz
Hunter
Do you know who should not be listened to?
A guy buys a gun, it has an issue, it doesn't go back to Ruger.
...instead it get $150 worth of parts installed, it still has the same issue.
After some bending, it gets a whole 10 rounds fired through it and is declared fixed.
It turns out, the gun, after all this has a total of 150, let me repeat 150, rounds through it.
...and it was carried loaded by this guy during all these trials and tribulations.
...and it never went back to Ruger.
A guy buys a gun, it has an issue, it doesn't go back to Ruger.
...instead it get $150 worth of parts installed, it still has the same issue.
After some bending, it gets a whole 10 rounds fired through it and is declared fixed.
It turns out, the gun, after all this has a total of 150, let me repeat 150, rounds through it.
...and it was carried loaded by this guy during all these trials and tribulations.
...and it never went back to Ruger.
jstanfield103 said:
OK ... perhaps I could have approached this in a more 'soft and fuzzy manner', and for that I apologize to jstanfield03.
The point I'm making is this ... I have no issue with modifying a gun for any kind of cosmetics ... grips, beavertails, whatever ... if you like it ... go for it. I would say that this thread is far from being about cosmetics ... it's primarily about messing with the fire-control system of a gun without knowing the ramifications of doing so. People read these threads and go out and start buying springs and polish and files.
This forum is read by a whole lot of people, and people tend to do stuff that other people say. If I came on this board and started listing reloading recipes that were above and beyond the limits that are listed in the manuals ... there's a good chance that somebody would try them. Same for modifications such as these. For that reason, I very rarely give out loads that I use, and just refer people to the reloading manuals. I may give the powder I use or the portion of the data I use ... for example ... full house 2400 loads .... but I rarely give out exact load data. If something happened after I gave out over the top load data ... I have no doubt that I could be held responsible, and most likely the site could be held responsible in today's litigious society.
The points listed above from your previous post kind of indicate that you really don't know what you're getting into as admiitted by yourself .... in that several of the conclusions that you came to in order to resolve the problem(s) admittedly 'DIDN'T WORK'. You were guessing at solutions. The fact that you have 150 successful rounds (or however many) DOES NOT MEAN YOU RESOLVED THE PROBLEM(s). You tried to fix a problem with 'light strikes' that your gun may not have even had. You called the manufacturer and THEY TOLD YOU TO SEND THE GUN BACK. What more do you need to hear ?
You wanted your gun to eat any type of ammo, and I completely and totally agree with that .... if it wouldn't ... Ruger would fix it until it did ... they TOLD YOU THEY WOULD. Did your gun even HAVE this problem ?
Just being able to disassemble and reassemble a gun successfully does not mean that you have the mechanical aptitude to work on the fire control group of a deadly weapon. Almost anybody could probably do that. I completely agree that someone without mechanical skills shouldn't get in above their heads when working on a given machine.
I don't work on ANY gun that I own for one main reason .... LIABILITY. I am not a licensed gunsmith ... are you ? I am not a licensed manufacturer of firearms ... are you ? Gunsmiths are licensed and have very expensive insurance policies for liability reasons. Do you have such insurance ? I'd guess NO to the above 3 questions.
I'm sorry jstanfield, but a lot of the things you say in this thread are completely inconsistent with ANY firearms instructor that I have EVER been taught by. EVERY SINGLE firearms instructor who taught me sure as hell wanted me to be concerned about being in a shooting incident. They emphasized over and over that you should not carry a gun that has been modified from factory stock ... or if it was ... it should be modified with factory authorized parts installed by the factory or a licensed gunsmith. Some even said not to use anything but factory ammo (which I'm also a proponent of). I have never had or spoken to any firearms instructor who spoke so cavalierly about amateur gunsmithing on a carry gun, or who made a statement such as yours when you stated that 'I'm not concerned about getting into a shooting incident'.
If you choose to tinker with the fire control systems of your weapons ... go right ahead, but I think it's irresponsible to do so on a site where others could take your advice and have bad things happen. Posting something on the internet is potentially a 'forever thing' .... you really have to be careful what you post ... if someone reads your posts, goes and does that thing you're suggesting, and has a problem .... you are going to get sued (or at the very least brought in on any lawsuit that may ensue) in these litigious times.
Again ... I'm sorry if I criticized you too strongly or harshly, but these are very important issues, and to suggest that anyone who is capable of mechancially modifying a weapon do so ... ESPECIALLY in a carry gun .... without knowing the ramifications of such actions .... is simply not the right thing to do. Ruger pays their gun designers BIG BUCKS to COMPLETELY understand all the intricacies of their fire control systems, and be sure that they are totally safe, and they carry massive insurance policies backing them up in these endevors. If they produce a product that suffers from light strikes, trigger reset issues, or the inability to function with certain types of ammo, they'll resolve all those issues for you for free .... and you'll STILL have a factory warranted and backed gun with all those big insurance policies behind you .... all for free.
What's not to like about that ?
REV
Sal1950 said:
Trust me Sal ... fear has nothing to do with it ... unless you mean fear of having an unsafe gun or being involved in a gigantic lawsuit. If I'm involved in a shooting incident OR accident ... I want all the deep-pocketed insurance policies of my LICENSED gunsmith or factory behind me.
Truth be told though ... when I buy a gun it's usually because I like the gun as is .... I don't buy guns with bad triggers hoping I can make them better. Prior to buying a gun ... I extensively test the triggers. I've NOT bought guns that I really liked just BECAUSE they had triggers that I didn't like, knowing that the extra money that I'd have to spend on a qualified gunsmith to make the repairs would make the gun 'not worth it'.
I've also had a few new Rugers that needed to go back to the factory for some work, and in all cases Ruger did a great job and went above and beyond the call in resolving the issues. Hell ... they even pay for postage BOTH ways ... thereby eliminating any complaints from customers about excessive costs being involved ... or ANY excuses from customers for NOT letting the factory handle things.
REV
RobbyRotten said:
For a real good read, and an eye-opening experience .... read Massad Ayoob's ... 'In the Gravest Extreme' or 'Stress Fire'. It is an awesome book and relates many incidents and reasons as to why modifications such as the ones we're discussing are a very real danger.
After reading that book ... many people decide NEVER to carry a weapon at all. The absolute WORST thing that can happen in your life is to have to draw your weapon in anger for any reason .... and to talk about that lightly is not to give the subject the intense thought that it deserves.
Please .... read that book. If you carry or are considering carrying, you owe it to yourself to be informed.
The one thing Mas mentions time and again is this scary thought ....
'The moment you use your gun (to kill) in self defense (whether you kill or not) ..... the entire justice system changes from trying to protect you .... to trying to convict you'. Or something very similar to that ....
Also ....
"Understanding the circumstances where one is legally justified in the use of deadly force is very confusing given the myths surrounding this subject matter and also the vast sea of convoluted laws that govern its use. This is a very complex, somber, and unpleasant subject that many prefer to avoid all together. Unfortunately though, by not knowing the rules of engagement, many individuals including police officers and law-abiding citizens find themselves being prosecuted for actions that they believed to be reasonable, just, and within the confines of the law. One way to avoid such a predicament is to just avoid self-defense altogether. The best way however, is to become knowledgeable in the intricate inner workings of the legal system with regard to self-defense."
REV
Sal1950
Blackhawk
revhigh said:Sal1950 said:
Trust me Sal ... fear has nothing to do with it ... unless you mean fear of having an unsafe gun or being involved in a gigantic lawsuit. If I'm involved in a shooting incident OR accident ... I want all the deep-pocketed insurance policies of my LICENSED gunsmith or factory behind me.
Truth be told though ... when I buy a gun it's usually because I like the gun as is .... I don't buy guns with bad triggers hoping I can make them better. Prior to buying a gun ... I extensively test the triggers. I've NOT bought guns that I really liked just BECAUSE they had triggers that I didn't like, knowing that the extra money that I'd have to spend on a qualified gunsmith to make the repairs would make the gun 'not worth it'.
I've also had a few new Rugers that needed to go back to the factory for some work, and in all cases Ruger did a great job and went above and beyond the call in resolving the issues. Hell ... they even pay for postage BOTH ways ... thereby eliminating any complaints from customers about excessive costs being involved ... or ANY excuses from customers for NOT letting the factory handle things.
REV
We do take an apples and oranges approach to our weapons. When I'm looking to add a weapon to my collection besides trying to get some hands on time with a rental or at least fondling at the LGS, I'll comb the internet to see what kinds of problems users are finding, and what guys are doing to improve the gun. You do have to be able to separate the BS from the gold but it is there. Like for Rugers there is Iowegan, the gunsmithing info he shares with others is first class and invaluable. We also have our own jhearne (Josh) here who's hard work, investigation and sharing of knowledge, has helped many SR owners to tune their SR's to a level that satisfied them.
Case in point is a used GP100 I picked up off Gunbroker recently. Before it even got here I had Wolff springs, new grips, HIVIZ sights, my trusty Dremel & polishing compound, and Iowegans IBOK for reference, waiting for it's arrival. What I received is exactly what I expected in a box stock GP, what I went to the range with on its first outing was a smooth as glass, clean breaking jewel. I know how I set it up and I wouldn't trust it not to light strike with most factory ammo, but with my Federal primed handloads I'd trust my life it will go bang when I pull the trigger. But in any case it's not my CCW.
Guess if I had the BIG bucks to buy all my weapons from, or have them tuned by, the best custom builders I'd be satisfied with "off the shelve", but I don't have thousands to spend on each gun like that. And then I wouldn't have the satisfaction of doing a "job well done" myself.
As to your points on the legal stuff, your mostly right but the decision on what to do or not do on a carry gun belongs in the hands of the owner and should not be dictated on this site. IMHO if you feel compelled to say something a short warning on the possible legal backlash would suffice. Or you could write up the full details of your feelings and put them up as a new post. Then just post a link to your tutorial when threads like this come up. Maybe a mod would sticky it.
My final comment is more to the original intent of this thread. As a 40 year Ruger guy and the owner of a SR9c I must say I'm a little disappointed in the factories recent output of poly semi-autos. Since their release the SR series have been plagued with light strike and trigger reset issues and now it's looks like the LC9 suffers from some similar light strike issues. After numerous revisions on the SR9 series the problems seem to remain, while most run just fine some continue to have issues even after a trip or two back to the factory, as can be read here. There is a variability at work here that Ruger should have totally solved a long time ago but they still don't seem to have a handle on it. So that is why others may have lost faith in Ruger and are looking for answers to these problems themselves. Could it be that the variable lies in the angle of the tab on the trigger reset bars, which are nothing more than cheap sheet metal stampings? Yea it's possible enough to warrant further testing and discussion. My SR9c is down in FL right now but when I get there in a couple weeks I've got a few tests I'd like to run myself when the time is available.
Best Regards,
Sal
RobbyRotten said:
Actually ... jstanfield did just that in his first post.
Unfortunately ... a disclaimer like the one stated would hold up about as well as most pre-marital agreements. It is not a legal document, and a person could easily say they didn't read it ...
You need to be VERY careful in this day and age as to what can be attributed to you ... especially on the internet .... what you type can easily be 'forever' .... and 'forever' never forgets .... especially in a courtroom.
Please check out those books and get back to me as to what your thoughts are if you care to .... they are VERY scary reads. So many people go into concealed carry having NO IDEA of the implications of doing so ... states vary ... cities vary ... and towns vary. Get into an otherwise righteous shoot in an anti gun city or town, where the prosecutor is against guns ... and righteous or not ... you'll be defending yourself against prosecution .... another town ?? they might not even charge you with anything. Either way .... most likely you WILL be sued by the perps estate .... just because they can ..... according to Mas ... a typical defense against such prosecution or defending yourself against a civil suit will likely cost you $100,000.
Now ... do you REALLY want to potentially stack the deck against yourself by giving the other attorney ammunition by carrying a gun that was modified by 'little old you' .... against all factory recommendations ????
REV
Sal1950 said:
Absolutely agreed on all points above .... except the solution (in red).
Myself ... and I am NOT Ruger bashing .... I would have bought a different platform that didn't HAVE all these issues. Glocks, M&P's, and XD's don't have ANY of these issues ... or not to anywhere NEAR the same extent ... as the current Ruger poly's.
Regarding your last sentence in RED ... I had no idea that the problem was that pervasive with the new Ruger polys and that people were THAT frustrated .... is that REALLY the way new Ruger buyers are thinking ... or is it just that most new Ruger poly buyers are new or newer to guns in general and haven't done the research ?
I research the hell out of everything I buy ... but to be honest ... in guns ... I pretty much know what I like .... and I generally DON'T like the new poly guns by ANY manufacturer. It's a rare day that you see problems with 1911's, METAL semi-autos, and mostly ANY revolver. I've been around guns long enough to mostly know what's good and what isn't so good. I have a few poly guns ... 2 Glocks and a KelTec, and have NEVER had one issue with any of them .... never tuned them ... never modified them .... and they run perfectly. Many times ... especially with 1911's .... they ran perfectly until somebody started messing with them. If I'm looking at a 1911 and it has virtually ANY mods ... I'm not interested ... because I have NO IDEA who did the work ... what their expertise was ... or if they even knew what they were doing .... I won't take that risk when there's MILLIONS of UN-modified guns to choose from. People go into a gun and start adding and removing and grinding and polishing, and bending and before you know it ... you have no idea how the gun is going to perform. It may work for 150 or 1500 or 15000 rounds and then fail ... or it may NEVER fail.
I'll take my chances with what the factory designed and just not buy guns that I don't like the characteristics of.
REV
Sal1950
Blackhawk
revhigh said:
Nope I'm not Ruger bashing either but truth is truth.
You can never really judge how pervasive an issue is from internet feedback only, as most posts are only made when problems arise, not when everything went well. But as a regular on this forum and the other .net forum there continue to be just way too many posts on these issues with current production guns?
As someone who spent their whole working life as a mechanic, machinist, and builder of high performance engines, I can say this.
1. I can't count the number of times the most vexing illusive issue was solved by a fresh set of eyes that looked at a problem, went back to the basics, and found the issue was caused the simplest but overlooked detail. That's why discussions like this are so important, the factory guys don't know everything.
2. If we had waited for MoPar to do it, they would have never turned the 392 Hemi into the fire-breathing, nitro burning, 10,000 horsepower monster that powers Top Fuel cars today. Some stuff you just HAVE to do yourselves, when these guys have issues think they call on the factory for a solution? LOL
Sal
Sal1950 said:
Wow !! Pretty grim statements and doesn't say too much for Ruger's current offerings if that's the truth, and I have no reason to doubt you. Don't really follow the Ruger poly's too much .... not too interested in them at all. Didn't realize there were that many problems.
REV
A
Anonymous
I read quite a few gun magazines, a couple include articles by Mr. Ayoob, and they really can be- disturbing. He frequently writes about misconceptions of actually using your weapon, and gives examples. Someone breaks into your house, just as you fire he turns, and/or you're using extreme-expansion ammo, and the prosecutors go after you because you shot the BG in the side/back as he was supposedly running awya, or you intentionally used fatally dangerous ammo. It really is scary- of course he usually agrees with the old maxim 'better to be judged by 12 than carried out by...'
I prefer Ruger do any necessary repairs, but after a LOT of reading in a LOT of places, I may indeed allow Eric to change my trigger. But only if I have further trouble (light strikes) after Ruger has a chance to fix it. It's pretty difficult to know what to do sometimes, so it's required that we, as gun owners, study and practice and be totally knowledgeable of the consequences of our actions. We can't justifiably blame anyone else, regardless of our distorted, ridiculous justice system.
I prefer Ruger do any necessary repairs, but after a LOT of reading in a LOT of places, I may indeed allow Eric to change my trigger. But only if I have further trouble (light strikes) after Ruger has a chance to fix it. It's pretty difficult to know what to do sometimes, so it's required that we, as gun owners, study and practice and be totally knowledgeable of the consequences of our actions. We can't justifiably blame anyone else, regardless of our distorted, ridiculous justice system.
jeffadaklin said:
Aint that the truth. The justice system is skewed enough against the CCW holder, let alone giving the prosecution or other attorney even more ammo to use against you. Some tend to laugh that stuff off, because it will probably never happen to them .... and it probably won't .... right up until it does.
His book ... even though it's many years old ... is still quite good, and should be required reading for any CCW holder. I've read it 5 or 6 times. Every few years I pick it up and read through it again.
REV
jeffadaklin said:
I would certainly think that Eric ... I'm guessing you mean Galloway's Eric, is a licensed gunsmith, or licensed gun manufacturer, and as such .... would carry the necessary and required insurance to protect himself against claims and/or errors/omissions ... etc etc.
All I'm saying is that when somebody works on my guns ..... they're going to have some kind of licensed expertise .... I WILL NOT be on the hook for any mods done to my guns all by myself ... because I'm smart enough to know when I don't know enough ..... especially when you're talking about a deadly instrument such as a gun .... where the consequences of an error or mis-step can be so devastating.
I doubt that Ruger officially approves of any mods not made by them. Most likely the same as every other gun manufacturer. A manufacturer will typically try to get out of responsibility in any way they can ... guns are just too dangerous. It's a wonder anybody even makes them anymore. If you modify your gun with a non-factory-approved part ... it pretty much lets the manufacurer wipe their hands of you in terms of responsibility.
From Galloway's site ...... not sure the following would hold up in a court (only since nothing seems to anymore, even seemingly airtight agreements
) ... Eric may be able to give you some insight regarding messing with your guns as a non-licensed individual. I'm not talking about a drop-in barrel or guide rod or something like that. I'm talking about home-made amateur mods to things like the fire-control-system.Galloway Precision is a class 07 FFL, dealer/manufacturer. Contact us if you need to ship your SR to us for parts installation, custom stippling, polishing services etc.
Notice of liability and warranty
Here at Galloway Precision we strive to provide quality US made products for savy responsible firearms owners. Anytime you work on or clean your firearms you are the sole responsible party for safe handling of the firearm, read the owners manual and respect every firearm.
*Altering any product, firearms, cars, even clothes comes with risks so understand and accept we assume no liablility for injury to the buyer or anyone residing with or operating with the buyer. The buyer is the sole responsible party for the use of their firearm with or without our parts.
I'd bet that every single aftermarket manufacturer of gun accessories uses exactly the same (or similar) disclaimer. Nothing against Galloway ... I'm sure they make good stuff that works, but you gotta at least say it. Whether saying it protects you or not is a question for the shyster lawyers and court system to decide, and how devastating the results of anything that happened were.
REV
A
Anonymous
rev said ' because I'm smart enough to know when I don't know enough '...Yep, my thinking exactly. When it comes to explosions- even small ones contained to the breech- I know my limits.
Verndog
Blackhawk
revhigh said:
Rev, come on now, even a Ferrari can be improved, it all boils down to cost vs benefit. 8) That said, when it comes to a CCW, I will lean heavily toward the if it works don't fix it camp.
