Mark II shoulder stock

[Snake45]

Yeah, keep in mind that Ruby Ridge started over something just like this, and Waco over something very similar. :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

[mohavesam]

Regardless of one's opinion of "the Law" (isn't that kinda like Original Sin?), it is law, and violations can and will relieve you of your freedom, your home, your family's provider, your dignity (when applying for another job with federal felonies on your name), and of course your Right to own firearms forever.

A Buckmark Rifle doesn't blow your skirt up? Then go get a Contender or Encore. But read up on the ATFE's stance on these also - converting a rifle config to a handgun just may be illegal also, big decisions were handed down, if you want to believe the ATFE can make their own laws by decree. I believe they can.
Check out http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
It's for real.

I hunted for years with Contender handguns & still do - but my actions as-sold in a carbine version never had short barrels (under 16") no matter what.
I will not opine on what is legal per the US gubmint, that is between you and your Fed-Court-experienced Attorney!

 

[98_1LE]

I believe what the OP is doing is perfectly legal. Making a rifle from a pistol is fine. But, I do not believe that receiver can legally be a pistol ever again.

Lots of people own AR pistols and rifle without any legal issues.

 

[mohavesam]

see above ruling.

 

[dacaur]

I believe what the OP is doing is perfectly legal. Making a rifle from a pistol is fine. But, I do not believe that receiver can legally be a pistol ever again.

That was true at one time, but a later ruling changed it (the one I linked above is the "latest") The current ruling is that as long as you START out as a pistol, you can then go to rifle and back to pistol without issue. But if you START as a rifle, you can NOT go to pistol.

Each AR "pistol" has a receiver serial numbered as a handgun. Think "Charger"...

Also wrong. You dont have to have a reciver marked "pistol", it just cannot be marked "rifle" on the reciver OR the form 4473, and must be assembled as a pistol before it is assembled as a rifle. If you assemble it as a rifle first, it must stay a rifle, but if you assemble it as a pistol first, it can then go back and forth between rifle and pistol as you see fit.... (again, the laws dont have to make sense, you just have to follow them) Having a reciver marked pistol would certainly remove any doubt, but its not a requirement. Its also not a guarantee. If you have a reciver marked pistol, but your FFL writes "rifle" on the transfer form, you cannot legally assemble it as a pistol, because it was sold as a rifle. Of course that wouldnt apply to your charger example, since chargers and 10/22's come from the factory as either pistols or rifles, but on an AR-15 all that really matters is what is written on the transfer form and in which order you assemble them.

 

[chapnelson]

Unlike all the examples given, the Ruger Mark series UPPER is the explosive device or firearm, per ATF, NOT the lower. The lower, to which the shoulder stock has been attached, is not a gun, and does not require an FFL for transfer. In essence he has created a custom stock, not unlike a custom Ruger 10/22 stock, which will not be a firearm until he puts the receiver on it, which is the actual gun (per ATF).

Had he attached the shoulder stock to the firearm portion (aka upper) with a barrel under 16" then he'd have been in trouble.

 

[dacaur]

Unlike all the examples given, the Ruger Mark series UPPER is the explosive device or firearm, per ATF, NOT the lower. The lower, to which the shoulder stock has been attached, is not a gun, and does not require an FFL for transfer. In essence he has created a custom stock, not unlike a custom Ruger 10/22 stock, which will not be a firearm until he puts the receiver on it, which is the actual gun (per ATF).

Had he attached the shoulder stock to the firearm portion (aka upper) with a barrel under 16" then he'd have been in trouble.

Nope. Unfortunately thats not how it works. Simply the act of having the three parts in close proximity, even if the stock is not attached to anything, he would be considerd to have made an NFA regulated firearm. I refer again to the latest ruling on this by the ATF, which can be found here. http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

The part that applies here is the following:

However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel);


Simply by having the stock, grip frame, and short barrel in his house, without having a 16" barrel as well, even if the parts are not attached to each other, is illegal (unless the "firearm portion" is registered as a SBR). whether the upper or the lower part is considerd the "firearm" is irrelevant.

 

[chapnelson]

So you would agree that what he built is not the problem.

That its in proximity to a short barreled receiver with no other option around seems to be the essence of your argument.

 

[Snake45]

So you would agree that what he built is not the problem.

That its in proximity to a short barreled receiver with no other option around seems to be the essence of your argument.

Isn't this a little like saying that a child molester isn't a problem as long as there are no children around?
:?

 

[Busterswoodshop]

You can make, and sell shoulderstocks all you want. if the person buying it is going to use it on a gun with a barrel shorter than 16" it is there responsibility to register it as a short-barreled rifle. The part itself is not something that can be registered, registration has to do with the serial number onthe gun. And if a contender doesn't have to be registered, why would a mk II that has both a short and long barrel need to be?

The way the law is with Contenders is,
You can put a short barrel on it only if it has a pistol grip installed first.
If you have a rifle stock on it you can not put a short barrel on it.
If you are carrying a kit around ( long and short barrel ) You have to have both stocks with you.
If you are carrying a Contender kit around with both short and long barrels and you only have a pistol grip with you , you are in violation of the law regardless of what barrel is on it.
If you have both short and long barrels with you , then you must have both stocks with you and the gun must be put together according to the law.
This is the only gun that the ATF will let you do this with without proper paper work and taxes paid.

 

[dacaur]

This is the only gun [Contenders] that the ATF will let you do this with without proper paper work and taxes paid.

Where are you getting this? Its not true. You can do the exact same thing and the exact same rules apply with an AR-15, ruger charger, and any other gun that can be both a pistol and a rifle (as long as it was a pistol first before it was a rifle)

So you would agree that what he built is not the problem.

That its in proximity to a short barreled receiver with no other option around seems to be the essence of your argument.

Like I said before (in post 2 and 14)

The problem here is not the act of making or owning the shoulder stock. The problem is making or owning the shoulder stock without also having a 16" bbl'd reciver to attach to it. Without that, the ONLY thing that can be done with the stock is to make a short barrel rifle, end of story.

So yea, thats exactly what I am saying.

 

[Snake45]

The way the law is with Contenders is...

If you are carrying a Contender kit around with both short and long barrels and you only have a pistol grip with you , you are in violation of the law regardless of what barrel is on it.

Don't you mean if you only have the rifle stock with you? ATF doesn't care how long a barrel you have on any handgun. You can have a barrel a yard long on a handgun and as long as it has rifling in it, that's fine with them.

 

[Busterswoodshop]

The way the law is with Contenders is...

If you are carrying a Contender kit around with both short and long barrels and you only have a pistol grip with you , you are in violation of the law regardless of what barrel is on it.

Don't you mean if you only have the rifle stock with you? ATF doesn't care how long a barrel you have on any handgun. You can have a barrel a yard long on a handgun and as long as it has rifling in it, that's fine with them.

Yes you are right, I got that backwards. . If all you have is a rifle stock and both barrels you are in violation of the law.
Thompson Contender took there case to court with the ATF and won.

 

[Busterswoodshop]

This is the only gun [Contenders] that the ATF will let you do this with without proper paper work and taxes paid.

Where are you getting this? Its not true. You can do the exact same thing and the exact same rules apply with an AR-15, ruger charger, and any other gun that can be both a pistol and a rifle (as long as it was a pistol first before it was a rifle)

If it is registered as a pistol you can put any barrel length on it you want but you can not put a rifle stock on it legally without a tax stamp.
If it is registered as a rifle you can not convert it from a shoulder stock to a pistol grip without a tax stamp.
Unless it is considered a kit which only Contender has been allowed to do.
Contender took this case to court and won.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

 

[dacaur]

If it is registered as a pistol you can put any barrel length on it you want but you can not put a rifle stock on it legally without a tax stamp.

Unless it is considered a kit which only Contender has been allowed to do.
Contender took this case to court and won.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

Thats the same ruling I linked. Please post the exact part that says it applies only to contenders. Ill save you some time, there is not one, because it applies to all firearms. Yes, the TC contender was the "test case", if you will, but the same now applies to everything.
Did you even read the whole thing? You sure miss a lot skimming.... On the very first page it says:

"Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits."

Please note in the first sentence the word "manufacturers". Notice it is plural. If the ruling applied only to one gun made by one MFG, why would they make it plural? :roll:
Also note that while you said "Unless it is considered a kit", the ATF letter states "These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits"

A little further down it says:

Certain parts or parts sets are also designed to allow an individual to convert a pistol into a rifle without removing a barrel or attaching a shoulder stock to the pistol. These parts consist of an outer shell with a shoulder stock into which the pistol may be inserted. When inserted, the pistol fires a projectile through a rifled extension barrel that is 16 inches or more in length, and with an overall length of 26 inches or more. Other parts sets require that certain parts of the pistol, such as the pistol barrel and the slide assembly, be removed from the pistol frame prior to attaching the parts sets.

Hmmm.... that doesnt sound like a contender to me.... Please correct me if I am wrong, but I dont believe a contender has a slide at all.... if the ruling applied only to contenders, why would they put that in there?

There seems to be a pattern here, in the actual ruling, you will notice it makes no mention of the contender, or any specific gun.

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or "any other weapon" as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no "weapon made from a rifle" subject to the NFA has been made.

No mention of contender, because it applies to everything, not just that specific gun...

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).

Again, you will notice, it doesnt mention a specific firearm, simply "a pistol". If the ruling applied only to TC guns, it would have said so.


I believe I have made a pretty firm case here.... but by all means, if I missed the part where it says the ruling applies only to the TC contender, please post it.....

 

[Busterswoodshop]

I am not going to argue with you.
I have Contenders and wasn't sure how to interpret this law so I actually called the ATF in Tucson and talked to the agent in charge that day. He told me what I posted. You can do what ever you would like to do I don't care. Personally I would suggest calling your local ATF and asking them. Maybe they will interpret it differently.

 

[dacaur]

I am not going to argue with you.
I have Contenders and wasn't sure how to interpret this law so I actually called the ATF in Tucson and talked to the agent in charge that day. He told me what I posted. You can do what ever you would like to do I don't care. Personally I would suggest calling your local ATF and asking them. Maybe they will interpret it differently.

Unfortunatly, people who "should" know what they are talking about giving out inccorect info happens all to often. Many times police officers dont know the laws, IRS agents dont know the tax code, new car dealerships dontknow things about their own cars that they should, teachers teach things wrong, etc etc...

As obviously happend to you, when someone doesnt know, they will often just give the "safe" answer rathan than admit they dont know. Its too bad stuff like that happens. Reading the ruling, there is absolutly nothing in it that says or even suggests that it applies only to one kind of gun, at the same time there are SEVERAL things that suggest and outright say it applies to "guns" genericaly.

 

[Richbaker]

This is the only gun [Contenders] that the ATF will let you do this with without proper paper work and taxes paid.

Where are you getting this? Its not true. You can do the exact same thing and the exact same rules apply with an AR-15, ruger charger, and any other gun that can be both a pistol and a rifle (as long as it was a pistol first before it was a rifle)

If it is registered as a pistol you can put any barrel length on it you want but you can not put a rifle stock on it legally without a tax stamp.
If it is registered as a rifle you can not convert it from a shoulder stock to a pistol grip without a tax stamp.
Unless it is considered a kit which only Contender has been allowed to do.
Contender took this case to court and won.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

There is NO registration in AZ.... NONE. :roll: A 4473 does NOT register any gun, the NICS check does NOT register any gun... AZ does NOT register any gun. Geez.

 

[cagedodger]

A shoulder stock on a pistol, huh?

When dancing around Federal Gun Laws, my advice would be "Watch out for trap doors, Lamar".

Cage

 

[Buzz Yooper]

JPDESIGN,

I just found your post regarding the shoulder stock attachment for a ruger MKII.

I have an AMT Lightning with a 16 inch barrel, ( a clone of the Ruger MKII ) and would love to put a shoulder stock on it.

What would you charge to make me one of these. All I really need is the part that covers the grip, and has t threaded hole to attach a stock, I don't need the stock itself.

Thanks in advance. Please feel free to contact me at: [email protected]