How To Tell If a Gun Has Been Fired

[Wyandot Jim]

Hey Guys,

How do you tell if a gun has been fired or not. We see a lot of advertised non fired old Rugers

This 45 convertible was advertised as unfired. Yea RIGHT.

Well now that I have it in my hot little hands. I think that is correct. It came out of an estate and I'm the third owner of it.

It is at least 99% no dents dings or such and it came with the box.

The cyl. base pin was very hard to get out. Like has not been out in a long time. I looked in the barrel and the face of the cyl. Just perfect. Do all Rugers get fired before leaving the factory? If so none are non fired.

So what do ya think?

Thanks sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much,

Jim

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Jim, I'm pretty sure they all HAVE to be fired for proofing. These days, they have to be fired to provide the spent cases included with them for identification purposes.

This has been discussed often before, and some folks seem to find the "unfired" ones like you have while others get the ones that appear to have been through a fifty-round session.

I'd guess the post-proofing cleaning procedures at the factory are not always done thoroughly, but sometimes are. Probably a toss of the dice.

JMHO

 

[Snake45]

If I have ever owned it, it is not Unfired. :wink:

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Jim, I'm pretty sure they all HAVE to be fired for proofing. These days, they have to be fired to provide the spent cases included with them for identification purposes.

This has been discussed often before, and some folks seem to find the "unfired" ones like you have while others get the ones that appear to have been through a fifty-round session.

I'd guess the post-proofing cleaning procedures at the factory are not always done thoroughly, but sometimes are. Probably a toss of the dice.

JMHO

Ya I know about the new models with the case.
But what took place in the early 70s???? So you get a job of shooting 1000 guns a day????
What was the amount of guns Ruger sent a Day?
Jim

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Probably not much different than what they do now, really.

Just guessing.

 

[Snake45]

I have a Smith K-22 I bought new in 1975 or 76 that's prolly seen more than 25K rounds. And when I clean it up really well, you have to look CLOSE at it to tell it's ever been fired.

 

[bob308]

back when they made the stitch to the new model in 73. me and a friend went around to all the stores and bought all the old stock. new old models. they all showed signs of being fired at the factory. we had them all .357's .41 mag and .45 even some convertables.

 

[rugerguy]

well Jim, that is a good question, and for the most part, yes, they are ALL fired....just how much?? never know, Smith used to shoot every other chamber,Colt alll of them ,some times NONE of them ( for commemeratives,none), Dan Wesson, when we worked there, they were shot 12 shots each, six proof /or full house magnums loads, and 6 for accuracy....... At High Standard, we shot them ALL...most of the Rugers we looked at over the years it was either one or all 6........easy to tell, just look around the chamber 'exit' hole, and around the barrel 'stub' coming in through the cylinder frame,and between the top inside of the top strap and the barrel...tough to clean in there, and most don't bother....yes, if one takes their time and carefully cleans this area, you can make it look 'unfired',but there are other tell tale signs, discoloration of the the area around the exit end of the chamber,gets a heat ring (temperature affects the steels makeup in this area...) also look inside the chambers themselves as well as both ends of the barrel...one can tell if a bullet passed through there, discoloration of the forcing cone as well as in the grooves ,between the the lands''''gotta look carefully, and at times pretty hard, a glass or a good light will help....to me if the gun looks absolutely "unfired" a little red light comes on and we will look even harder, as this is the sign of a GOOD "restoration", and it shouldn't be "THAT PERFECT" ( they forget to make it look like it was fired, at least ONCE anyway........)
I know there are times when it seems impossible that any given firearm could have left the factory, NOT fired, or checked out because they flat out aren't finished....hell we've seen them come out with missing chambers, wrong calibers, smooth bores, and on and on,someone failed to check them out or they would NOT have been shipped.....
ah yes, manufactruig, humans making things for other humans.......

on the other side of the coin, we have seen "brand new guns" come out that looked like they went through a war, absolutely filthy ,dirty...........and for obvious reasons maybe......could have had 'problems' or could have been used for target practice ( friendly fire at lunch time at the range....) or maybe they forgot to clean it afterwards.......been there, seen that happen.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

well Jim, that is a good question, and for the most part, yes, they are ALL fired....just how much?? never know, Smith used to shoot every other chamber,Colt alll of them ,some times NONE of them ( for commemeratives,none), Dan Wesson, when we worked there, they were shot 12 shots each, six proof /or full house magnums loads, and 6 for accuracy.......most of the Rugers we lloked at over the years itwas eitehr one or all 6........easy to tell, just look around the chamber 'exit' hole, and around the barrel 'stub' coming in through the cylinder frame,and between the top inside of the top strap and the barrel...tough to clean in there, and most don't bother....yes, if one takes their time and carefully cleans this area, you can make it look 'unfired',but there are other tell tale signs, discoloration of the the area around the exit end of the chamber,gets a heat ring (temperature affects the steels makeup in this area...) also look inside the chambers themselves as well as both ends of the barrel...one can tell if a bullet passed through there, discoloration of the forcing cone as well as in the grooves ,between the the lands''''gotta look carefully, and at times pretty hard, a glass or a good light will help....to me if the gun looks absolutely "unfired" a little red light comes on and we will look even harder, as this is the sign of a GOOD "restoration", and it shouldn't be "THAT PERFECT" ( they forget to make it look like it was fired, at least ONCE anyway........)
I know there are times when it seems impossible that any given firearm could have left the factory, NOT fired, or checked out because they flat out aren't finished....hell we've seen them come out with missing chambers, wrong calibers, smooth bores, and on and on,someone failed to check them out or they would NOT have been shipped.....
ah yes, manufactruig, humans making things for other humans.......

on the other side of the coin, we have seen "brand new guns" come out that looked like they went through a war, absolutely filthy ,dirty...........and for obvious reasons maybe......could have had 'problems' or could have been used for target practice ( friendly fire at lunch time at the range....) or maybe they forgot to clean it afterwards.......been there, seen that happen.

Dan,
Thanks so much for your input.
I have looked at most of that stuff. I just can't find it has been shot maybe other than the factory. It hasn't been re blued either.
The damn thing looks just like new.
Like I stated the seller said it came from an estate as unfired with other Rugers. Well it sure looks like it to me. I can't believe I was so lucky to find it.
Jim

 

[rugerguy]

good for you, I know, I too have seen many are just like that look like they were never fired and you wonder how they did get out, as well as stay just that way..........why not, if they did a good job of fitting, and the 'old man ' (WR Sr.) was happy, ship them............................why tie up people shooting ( testing) cleaning ,as well as the cost of the ammo,all precious time & money to be "wasted for naught..." the fitters will know a GOOD gun when they are finished............

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Since the "big dawgs" are present, I'll ask the obvious . . .

What about "proofing" and the "lawyer cartridge cases" required??

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Since the "big dawgs" are present, I'll ask the obvious . . .

What about "proofing" and the "lawyer cartridge cases" required??

Ale,
I'm not talking about what takes place now with the weasel lawyers.
Did Mr. Bill have a person shooting every Ruger that went out the door?
How many guns per day was this?
All the center fire cylinders have an S stamped on them as the proof mark.
So since it is blued they must have shot the cylinder in the white. It passed then they blued it. Give me a break. I need help here from the experts. Sounds like a bunch of crap to me.
To me this seems like a WHOLE LOT OF COSTLY WORK TO GO THROUGH
So ya think Mr. Bill, the CHEAP GUY, had a guy shooting his arsh off all day long. Then ship them.
Oh by the way I have an Old Flattop that doesn't have an S stamped on it.
Soooooooooooo was it ever proof tested?
Thanks,
Jim

 

[rugerguy]

I think you'll find that the "S" was NOT for proof test firing of the cylinder but for the heat treat, and they were blued after this was done...some guns the "S" is on the other end, and yes, we have seen them with NO mark ,either end.....makes for an interesting question........
and yes, the "fired cases" for every gun made today, is for the few states that have and use the "ballistics" comparison laws they passed, and yes, some are even shot with "proof" loads..........this one came out of an anniversary flatop .44 mag........

 

[Wyandot Jim]

I think you'll find that the "S" was NOT for proof test firing of the cylinder but for the heat treat, and they were blued after this was done...some guns the "S" is on the other end, and yes, we have seen them with NO mark ,either end.....makes for an interesting question........
and yes, the "fired cases" for every gun made today, is for the few states that have and use the "ballistics" comparison laws they passed, and yes, some are even shot with "proof" loads..........this one came out of an anniversary flatop .44 mag........

Hey Dan,
I bought 1000 rounds of 45-70 that was used by Marlin for proof firing.
The guy I bought it from told me he buys all Cals. by the pickup load then sorts it. Yea they have the read paint on them. They were starline brass.
I wasn't sure about the heat treat stamp.
Soooooooooooo I have 6 or so never fitted brand new cylinders from Ruger. They were Joe Bowman's and they do not have the S on them. These are new model 357s so why not the heat stamp??
I thought the S was a test fire. Now I know the rest of the story.
Thanks, Now we know how old wifes tales get started.
Jim

 

[rugerguy]

No, It may be just an inspection stamp (acceptance for use??),but odd that it is done before the bluing is done......and if after its fired, the "S" would be in the white.....
wonder why only the centerfires and NOT the .22 calibers, if it was for 'test firing'........
maybe those "new" cylinders were never fitted, and then thats when they get stamped.......I see the "new" models (1980s and 90s), the "S" is smaller and in the back for the most part????

 

[Wyandot Jim]

No, It may be just an inspection stamp (acceptance for use??),but odd that it is done before the bluing is done......and if after its fired, the "S" would be in the white.....
wonder why only the centerfires and NOT the .22 calibers, if it was for 'test firing'........
maybe those "new" cylinders were never fitted, and then thats when they get stamped.......I see the "new" models (1980s and 90s), the "S" is smaller and in the back for the most part????

Dan these have never been fitted. But if they were test fired after fitted. Wouldn't the stamp then be in the white? Kind of like the convertible cylinders. Last 3 in the white.
I think the rim fires fall into a different catagory.
Still a mystery. These cyl. are 2.00"OAL and the front and rear faces are blue.
Jim

 

[Ale-8(1)]

"Give me a break. I need help here from the experts."

Well, excuse the hell out of me . . . I'll just butt out.

"I think you'll find that the "S" was NOT for proof test firing of the cylinder"

And all the Ruger books have explained that the "S" was a proof mark. Now we learn the truth after all these years????

Right.

:roll:

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Ale,
I'm not talking about what takes place now with the weasel lawyers.
Did Mr. Bill have a person shooting every Ruger that went out the door?
How many guns per day was this?
All the center fire cylinders have an S stamped on them as the proof mark.
So since it is blued they must have shot the cylinder in the white. It passed then they blued it. Give me a break. I need help here from the experts. Sounds like a bunch of crap to me.
To me this seems like a WHOLE LOT OF COSTLY WORK TO GO THROUGH
So ya think Mr. Bill, the CHEAP GUY, had a guy shooting his arsh off all day long. Then ship them.
Oh by the way I have an Old Flattop that doesn't have an S stamped on it.
Soooooooooooo was it ever proof tested?
Thanks,
Jim

"Give me a break. I need help here from the experts."

Well, excuse the hell out of me . . . I'll just butt out.

"I think you'll find that the "S" was NOT for proof test firing of the cylinder"

And all the Ruger books have explained that the "S" was a proof mark. Now we learn the truth after all these years????

Right.

:roll:

Ale,
I'm very sorry that you took this post wrong. It just didn't come out right.
You know I would never say anything to disrespect you. Unless I had my head up where the sun don't shine. Ya I have done that a time or two.
I guess the question is
. Way back when did Ruger have someone shoot every gun? Then take out the cyl. and stamp it with an S. If that was the way they did it why is the S blue and not on all cylinders?
Did Ruger have a range of some kind of a test tube or did they just go behind the Red Barn?
Still confused, but that's easy.
Sorry Ale
Jim

 

[chet15]

It was always my understanding that the "S" was a proofmark as well.
But you know what, there may be something to the heat treat idea.
When I was at the factory, was told that every Ruger firearm gets either 1 round (rifles), six rounds (revolvers) or a full clip of ammo (10/22's, pistols and Mini-s).
Once the guns are test fired they go to final inspection, get cleaned and sent to the shipping department to be boxed for shipment...which makes sense because any sign of testfiring on a blued revolver comes after the guns are blued.
So if its a proofmark, does the final inspection include somebody smearing some kind of cold blue in the proofmark of those cylinders (and barrels of the rifles!) before they get their final cleaning?
It would seem that those guns were already stamped with the "S" or Newport mark before they even got to testfiring...which means they quite possibly are a heat treat stamp instead of proofmark.
Was also told that beyond function firing, the .22's don't get proofloads...all of Ruger's .22's firearms are built like a tank anyway, so proofloads aren't needed.
Will pose the question to a friend of mine who is close with the factory.
Chad

 

[chet15]

No, It may be just an inspection stamp (acceptance for use??),but odd that it is done before the bluing is done......and if after its fired, the "S" would be in the white.....
wonder why only the centerfires and NOT the .22 calibers, if it was for 'test firing'........
maybe those "new" cylinders were never fitted, and then thats when they get stamped.......I see the "new" models (1980s and 90s), the "S" is smaller and in the back for the most part????

Dan these have never been fitted. But if they were test fired after fitted. Wouldn't the stamp then be in the white? Kind of like the convertible cylinders. Last 3 in the white.
I think the rim fires fall into a different catagory.
Still a mystery. These cyl. are 2.00"OAL and the front and rear faces are blue.
Jim

Well, here's an example of Ruger getting out of their normal standardized procedures. When's the last time anybody's heard of Ruger just sending out a cylinder without being fitted at the factory. All instruction manuals clearly state that they must be fitted at the factory. But....depends who you know right? so somebody just gave the approval to send them off to Mr. Bowman. Who knows if they have been heat treated (I would assume they are, but ????). Can you imagine somebody sending something as important as a group of cylinders to Joe Bowman without them at least being heat treated?
Guess whoever uses them would maybe find out. Maybe they need sent back to the factory to be sure??
Anyway, it is clear that Ruger is out of their element when those cylinders were sent out anyway.
Chet15