What no serious suggestions for Bigfoot ammo? Seriously one thing most folks seem to missing besides the actual question is the fact ALL handgun rounds pretty much suck. You can put +P or magnum after the number and you can jump up and down about how great one is or how much the other sucks but in the in they all suck as fight stoppers.
As mike mentioned we carry handguns because they are easy to conceal, lighter than rifles, and generally cheaper to buy/shoot.
To those of you hung up on a magnum or 45 great for you. 1 shot stops are documented for any caliber. Pick one. You'll find a record to back it up as a death ray. Are bigger holes better? Yes. Are quick follow up shots better? Yes. Is it easier with a 9mm to follow up shots? Yes. Is it easier to make hits with a 9mm for most average people? Yes. Does that run up the total number of hits in the fatality? Yes.
Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques, SECOND EDITION (Practical Aspects of Criminal & Forensic Investigations)
by Vincent J.M. DiMaio M.D
Excellent read. He states in the book several things one being that in 40 plus years he was never able to tell if a wound was 32acp,38 spec,357 mag,9 mm, 40, 44mag, 45 acp or any combo till he cut them open or they recovered on scene spent rounds. He also writes that he had never seen a fatal wound that would have gone the other way if there was a change from FMJ to JHP or from JHP to FMJ in a handgun round.
I've been around a long time in shooting sports and training activities and have several family members that are in law enforcement. I've heard the stories first hand from those involved. Let me share some briefly.
-Years ago a female HP officer pulled a guy over for speeding. Walks up and is shot from about 1 foot with a 357mag through the heart. The BG's revolver skipped and jammed. The officer drew her own 357 and empty all 6 rounds onto the back window and roof. She hit BG 3 times. Small of the back, shoulder, and the kill shot through the spine above the shoulder. The officer survived. Wound had seared enough to keep here from bleeding out.
-A woman was shot by a 44 mag after opening her front door to a stranger. He was a would be hitman hired by a miserable husband. The hardcast bullet struck her forehead splitting into 2 main pieces exiting off both sides of her head. It knocked her out and she awoke in a pool of blood and called 911.
-PD Officers responded to a man attacking his wife. On scene they are attacked as they enter the house. Man was high on PCP. Two additional countys arrived a moment later. The man recieved over 20 body shots of 357 mag inside 15 feet and more than 20 rounds of 45acp inside 25 feet. It was the 3rd 12 gauge slug that literally blew his brains out that stopped the fight.
-A group of officers in a raid on a meth house met a man armed with a AR. He took over a 100 hits total to the body from 9mm, 40, and 45. 20 something of it was 5.56 from a 10 inch barrel AR. His spine was severed below the ribs and he went down but kept fighting. It was the blast from a 12 gauge 00 buck to the back of the neck shoulder area that blew his spine out and stopped the fight. He was not high on drugs just really ready to fight to the death.
Think it's all about the 12 gauge?
-A ER doc I know told me over the years he has seen 2 12 gauge slug victims walk into his ER. 1 turned out to be a home invader shot by the homeowner. At about 15 feet he was shot in the left shoulder. It shattered his shoulder blade passed through broke his collar bone on the way out. He ran and jumped out the window he had entered from. The cops followed his blood trail to its end. He had got in his car and drove to the ER! The other was a man shot while shooting at the cops. He was above them and a deputy fired up at him. All they new was he ran off into the dark. Well he walked into a local ER with a slug entering above the hip crossing his internals to the opposite shoulder where it stopped.
1shot stops?
-A gang member was shot at nearly a 100 yards with a 22 to the eyesocket. It went in and scrambled his brains as it bounced around inside. 1 shot stop. Over 10 rounds were fired that is the only one that hit him.
-A HRT unit entered a house with a angry x-employee holding his old boss at gun point. The shield man fired one shot of 9mm 124 grain. The BG went down before he could pull the trigger on target again. They thought at first he had fainted. Cuffed him only to find his wound to the throat had broke his spine open like a crab leg attacked by a hungry fat woman.
See a pattern? Spine or brain box. That's a fight stopper not caliber. Rifles and shotguns have more power and more accuracy (due to more contact points regardless of barrel length). These folks who hunt bear or buffalo or whatever with magnum revolvers are stalking or waiting for their shot. Not reacting like what happens to bikers or hikers on a nature trail or the unlucky chump walking home after a car break down in a mtn or forest area. I had several co workers who hunted black bear with G22s loaded with 180 grain off the shelf wad cutter rounds. They had dogs to run the bears out and bear mace just in case. They told me it's better to have to much 40 than 6 rounds of any magnum.
Vern I carry a 9mm everywhere. I prefer 40 but 9 is cheaper and I can carry more on me and in the pistol. When we hike I carry 115 grain 9mm ball loaded with American eagle or WWB. I'm thinking deep penetration on the 175-275lb black bears that roam all the mtn areas around me that will get aggressive sometimes. The spare mag on my belt is standard defensive stuff, 124 grain gold dot.
I've never felt under gunned or overloaded. My firsthand info suggests 147 suck and tend to overpenetrate in hollow point form due to failure to expand due to low velocity, they do great in ball but 115 moves faster and penatrates deeper when comparing ball. Research suggests also that hollow points don't really add much as far as instant stop. They increase the permanent wound cavity (blood loss) diameter as long as they expand correctly but should mainly be considered as a way to prevent overpentration, thus reducing liability of noncombatant injuries.
I've spent a tremendous amount of time and money on my defensive skills. This is mind set and it matters more than caliber ever will. Practice, practice then practice some more.
10 mm with a ported barrel would be ideal but 9 is what you have. Get off the X and put as many rounds as possible on target.
If you made it this far thanks for reading, now get out there and practice with what you carry rather than worrying about what someone else carries into the woods.
Eric
As mike mentioned we carry handguns because they are easy to conceal, lighter than rifles, and generally cheaper to buy/shoot.
To those of you hung up on a magnum or 45 great for you. 1 shot stops are documented for any caliber. Pick one. You'll find a record to back it up as a death ray. Are bigger holes better? Yes. Are quick follow up shots better? Yes. Is it easier with a 9mm to follow up shots? Yes. Is it easier to make hits with a 9mm for most average people? Yes. Does that run up the total number of hits in the fatality? Yes.
Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques, SECOND EDITION (Practical Aspects of Criminal & Forensic Investigations)
by Vincent J.M. DiMaio M.D
Excellent read. He states in the book several things one being that in 40 plus years he was never able to tell if a wound was 32acp,38 spec,357 mag,9 mm, 40, 44mag, 45 acp or any combo till he cut them open or they recovered on scene spent rounds. He also writes that he had never seen a fatal wound that would have gone the other way if there was a change from FMJ to JHP or from JHP to FMJ in a handgun round.
I've been around a long time in shooting sports and training activities and have several family members that are in law enforcement. I've heard the stories first hand from those involved. Let me share some briefly.
-Years ago a female HP officer pulled a guy over for speeding. Walks up and is shot from about 1 foot with a 357mag through the heart. The BG's revolver skipped and jammed. The officer drew her own 357 and empty all 6 rounds onto the back window and roof. She hit BG 3 times. Small of the back, shoulder, and the kill shot through the spine above the shoulder. The officer survived. Wound had seared enough to keep here from bleeding out.
-A woman was shot by a 44 mag after opening her front door to a stranger. He was a would be hitman hired by a miserable husband. The hardcast bullet struck her forehead splitting into 2 main pieces exiting off both sides of her head. It knocked her out and she awoke in a pool of blood and called 911.
-PD Officers responded to a man attacking his wife. On scene they are attacked as they enter the house. Man was high on PCP. Two additional countys arrived a moment later. The man recieved over 20 body shots of 357 mag inside 15 feet and more than 20 rounds of 45acp inside 25 feet. It was the 3rd 12 gauge slug that literally blew his brains out that stopped the fight.
-A group of officers in a raid on a meth house met a man armed with a AR. He took over a 100 hits total to the body from 9mm, 40, and 45. 20 something of it was 5.56 from a 10 inch barrel AR. His spine was severed below the ribs and he went down but kept fighting. It was the blast from a 12 gauge 00 buck to the back of the neck shoulder area that blew his spine out and stopped the fight. He was not high on drugs just really ready to fight to the death.
Think it's all about the 12 gauge?
-A ER doc I know told me over the years he has seen 2 12 gauge slug victims walk into his ER. 1 turned out to be a home invader shot by the homeowner. At about 15 feet he was shot in the left shoulder. It shattered his shoulder blade passed through broke his collar bone on the way out. He ran and jumped out the window he had entered from. The cops followed his blood trail to its end. He had got in his car and drove to the ER! The other was a man shot while shooting at the cops. He was above them and a deputy fired up at him. All they new was he ran off into the dark. Well he walked into a local ER with a slug entering above the hip crossing his internals to the opposite shoulder where it stopped.
1shot stops?
-A gang member was shot at nearly a 100 yards with a 22 to the eyesocket. It went in and scrambled his brains as it bounced around inside. 1 shot stop. Over 10 rounds were fired that is the only one that hit him.
-A HRT unit entered a house with a angry x-employee holding his old boss at gun point. The shield man fired one shot of 9mm 124 grain. The BG went down before he could pull the trigger on target again. They thought at first he had fainted. Cuffed him only to find his wound to the throat had broke his spine open like a crab leg attacked by a hungry fat woman.
See a pattern? Spine or brain box. That's a fight stopper not caliber. Rifles and shotguns have more power and more accuracy (due to more contact points regardless of barrel length). These folks who hunt bear or buffalo or whatever with magnum revolvers are stalking or waiting for their shot. Not reacting like what happens to bikers or hikers on a nature trail or the unlucky chump walking home after a car break down in a mtn or forest area. I had several co workers who hunted black bear with G22s loaded with 180 grain off the shelf wad cutter rounds. They had dogs to run the bears out and bear mace just in case. They told me it's better to have to much 40 than 6 rounds of any magnum.
Vern I carry a 9mm everywhere. I prefer 40 but 9 is cheaper and I can carry more on me and in the pistol. When we hike I carry 115 grain 9mm ball loaded with American eagle or WWB. I'm thinking deep penetration on the 175-275lb black bears that roam all the mtn areas around me that will get aggressive sometimes. The spare mag on my belt is standard defensive stuff, 124 grain gold dot.
I've never felt under gunned or overloaded. My firsthand info suggests 147 suck and tend to overpenetrate in hollow point form due to failure to expand due to low velocity, they do great in ball but 115 moves faster and penatrates deeper when comparing ball. Research suggests also that hollow points don't really add much as far as instant stop. They increase the permanent wound cavity (blood loss) diameter as long as they expand correctly but should mainly be considered as a way to prevent overpentration, thus reducing liability of noncombatant injuries.
I've spent a tremendous amount of time and money on my defensive skills. This is mind set and it matters more than caliber ever will. Practice, practice then practice some more.
10 mm with a ported barrel would be ideal but 9 is what you have. Get off the X and put as many rounds as possible on target.
If you made it this far thanks for reading, now get out there and practice with what you carry rather than worrying about what someone else carries into the woods.
Eric
