A mind is a terrible thing......

[mindustrial]

What's so wrong with loading .357 in 9mm? Gee, it cut my group size in half at 20yds.

I slugged my Beretta at .357...why not shoot bullets that match the bore size?

 

[5of7]

What's so wrong with loading .357 in 9mm? Gee, it cut my group size in half at 20yds.

I slugged my Beretta at .357...why not shoot bullets that match the bore size?

Nothing, especially when the groove diameter on the 9MM is .357... 8)

 

[Cheesewhiz]

What's so wrong with loading .357 in 9mm? Gee, it cut my group size in half at 20yds.

I slugged my Beretta at .357...why not shoot bullets that match the bore size?

There are many publications concerning handloading that say it's a bad idea. All you have to do is read them. Lymans' has been printing it for years, so has Hornady, so has Speer and I'm sure many others.

This is a pic from Lyman #49 under 9mm load data.



That's from a Lyman's manual, the bible quoted most often by the reloaders on this forum. I suggest you post this in the reloading section and see what they have to say.

I will say this again, the 9mm Luger is a very high pressure cartridge, one of the highest pressured rounds that is regularly chambered in a semi-auto pistol. Screwing around with the laws of psychics is a good way to blow up a gun and hurt you or someone else.

 

[5of7]

What's so wrong with loading .357 in 9mm? Gee, it cut my group size in half at 20yds.

I slugged my Beretta at .357...why not shoot bullets that match the bore size?

There are many publications concerning handloading that say it's a bad idea. All you have to do is read them. Lymans' has been printing it for years, so has Hornady, so has Speer and I'm sure many others.

This is a pic from Lyman #49 under 9mm load data.



That's from a Lyman's manual, the bible quoted most often by the reloaders on this forum. I suggest you post this in the reloading section and see what they have to say.

I will say this again, the 9mm Luger is a very high pressure cartridge, one of the highest pressured rounds that is regularly chambered in a semi-auto pistol. Screwing around with the laws of psychics is a good way to blow up a gun and hurt you or someone else.

Or, if you are capable of thinking for yourself, mechanically inclined enough to read a micrometer, able to access cartridge and chamber specifications on the SAAMI web site, and able to slug your barrel to determine it's actual groove diameter, then you can just load bullets that match that groove diameter and get on with your life.... 8)

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/9mm%20Luger%20-%209mm%20Luger%20+P.pdf

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I see my friend has posted twice since I put him on the ignore list. I don't do this easily as I enjoy an intelligent debate but there is no debate with the clueless. I think I warned all enough that his input is suspect and his reloading knowledge is non-existent.

...but I will say again: Do not use his data that I reposted here, it is 10,000 to 15,000 PSI over max for the 9mm Luger round as best as I can calculate and it could be more as there are so many things that make it out of max spec.

if you don't believe me, ask someone with a reloading manual and a lick of sense.

 

[5of7]

I see my friend has posted twice since I put him on the ignore list. I don't do this easily as I enjoy an intelligent debate but there is no debate with the clueless. I think I warned all enough that his input is suspect and his reloading knowledge is non-existent.

...but I will say again: Do not use his data that I reposted here, it is 10,000 to 15,000 PSI over max for the 9mm Luger round as best as I can calculate and it could be more as there are so many things that make it out of max spec.

if you don't believe me, ask someone with a reloading manual and a lick of sense.

There you go again..... :lol:

May I suggest that you speak for yourself? The rest of these guys seem to know a little more about handloading than you do.... 8)

 

[mindustrial]

But Cheesewhiz read it in a book, it must be true..."chamber restrictions prevent the safe use of larger diameter bullets". What chamber restrictions? What happens when your chambers are big? Pressure involves many variables.

My lead bullets are even bigger at .358. They make for funny looking little Coke bottle shapped cartridges, but they chamber just fine.

I've got an S&W 624 with cylinder throats of .433- .434, guess what bullet dia I use in that gun? .433

 

[modrifle3]

What 5of7 is doing is very common and specific to one barrel. He isn't making this as run of the mill ammo. This is talked about on 1911forum.com as well as castboolits.com The folks doing this have the knowledge to build loads and would not be using maxed out load data.

 

[modrifle3]

Also a good number of 9mm bores are bigger than the normal .355 that fmj is loaded with. I had this issue with my XD, I slugged it because my lead reloads were blowing past the rifling. I was showing a tad bigger than .357.

 

[modrifle3]

Also remember that no reloading manual will ever recommend anything other than established industry specifications. Once they do they are responsible for it being wrong. This why most load data I have used seems to fall short of the factory ammo you can buy. Also, I have books from the 50s and 60s showing heavier loads for max than modern books. Very few cases, but I have found them.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

But Cheesewhiz read it in a book, it must be true..."chamber restrictions prevent the safe use of larger diameter bullets". What chamber restrictions? What happens when your chambers are big? Pressure involves many variables.

My lead bullets are even bigger at .358. They make for funny looking little Coke bottle shapped cartridges, but they chamber just fine.

I've got an S&W 624 with cylinder throats of .433- .434, guess what bullet dia I use in that gun? .433

Boy, you have terrible luck in buying firearms. You have at least two guns that are out of a normal tolerance range. Why didn't you send them back and get them right?

Yeah and I read books because I can.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

What 5of7 is doing is very common and specific to one barrel. He isn't making this as run of the mill ammo. This is talked about on 1911forum.com as well as castboolits.com The folks doing this have the knowledge to build loads and would not be using maxed out load data.

Really, he is loading an oversized bullet for the caliber, with a over max powder load and an extremely less than minimum overall length and that's common?

I ask, in what world? The toothless, one eyed world of blown up dipsticks?

The minimum length for an XTP HP bullet is about 1.070" in a 9mm, he is loading at 1.040" and if he was loading AA#5 to the max for the 1.070 length, the max load listed would be around 6gr not 7gr. He is over by a full grain on his powder and at least .025" under the minimum for length that works out to at the very least 10,000 PSI over any SAMMI spec and well beyond any 9mm Major or +P+ and that's not even counting the over diameter of the bullet itself.

He made a comment that it was only pushing 1,100 fps in that thread as a way of knowing it was not an over pressure round. If that is true, I know the answer, do you Mod? Read some more and get back to me. Reading is good.

 

[modrifle3]

I never talked about overloads only the bullet size. Pressure and speed are not direct relations so yes I know the answer. Air space and burn speed as well as bullet weight determine pressure. If he has worked up the load without over pressure signs then so be it. I don't care either way. He's the one doing it. Besides most loaders only oversize with lead. The resistance level is much greater with copper.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I never talked about overloads only the bullet size. Pressure and speed are not direct relations so yes I know the answer. Air space and burn speed as well as bullet weight determine pressure. If he has worked up the load without over pressure signs then so be it. I don't care either way. He's the one doing it. Besides most loaders only oversize with lead. The resistance level is much greater with copper.

The lead used in a normal jacketed bullet, XTP's are jacketed HP, is much softer than any hard cast. The jacket takes on the characteristics of the base media (soft lead) to a point and not the gilding metal. When a load, doesn't matter whether it's jacketed or hardcast, reaches its velocity curve and starts to level off, the pressure just keeps rising when more powder is added to the mix but the velocity will only gain a slight amount. At some point the velocity of the bullet shot from a semi-auto pistol will drop below any previous max. This is because the other factors of the gun's mechanics come into play and the slide and unlocking of the barrel occur more quickly. This is bad for the gun and even worse for the shooter. At some point this gun will fail and seeing it isn't built as stoutly as a full sized pistol it will be sooner. You may see no major pressure signs on the brass as the over pressured round has unlocked early. I didn't fall off the turnip truck, I actually know what I'm talking about.

 

[5of7]

I never talked about overloads only the bullet size. Pressure and speed are not direct relations so yes I know the answer. Air space and burn speed as well as bullet weight determine pressure. If he has worked up the load without over pressure signs then so be it. I don't care either way. He's the one doing it. Besides most loaders only oversize with lead. The resistance level is much greater with copper.

What old cheezy isn't considering is that OAL is not what is important. What is important in the 9MM is SEATING DEPTH.

Now, since the 110 gr. XTP bullet is .070" shorter than a Remington FMJ 115 gr bullet, seating it (the 110 gr. XTP) .070" shorter in terms of OAL length, results in the same SEATING DEPTH. :lol:

He also missed the point that I am using F100 primers, one of the softest primers out there, so it is indeed possible to read pressure signs by observing the condition of the primers. But I don't suppose anyone has told him about that yet. Maybe you can, he won't listen to me.... :lol:

This guy cracks me up....a real belt and suspenders man.... :lol:

 

[5of7]

It is possible that if you spelled breech face right, you would have had better luck with your search. :lol:

Thanks for the spelling lesson, perhaps you can help me out with this?

9mm Reload Data

Hornady XTP 110gr .357" diameter

AA#5 7gr.

OAL 1.040"

If it looks familiar, it's because it's your posted reload data in another thread from a day or two ago. The "data" breaks at least 3 different handloading tenants.


http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=207880&start=15


#1 You are using a bullet not designed for use in the 9mm cartridge. It is .001" in diameter over any reloading data I have ever seen in a manual. Most reloading manuals even goes as far as to state that you should never use a bullet over .356" in diameter, period. It is considered dangerous or they would not put it in the manual.

#2 That powder weight is .2gr higher than the highest new max load data I have found for 9mm using a 100gr bullet and that powder (Hornady #8).The Accurate Data has a listed max for that powder using any 115gr bullet as 6.3 gr and for a Barnes 115 gr HP bullet similar to a XTP it is a max of 5.5gr of #5. You are using an oversized 110gr bullet so I would lean to the 115gr data for this nightmare.

#3 You have an OAL of 1.040" on your "data" and that is ridiculously short for an XTP bullet, the minimum length listed is 1.070" or so, a length that is .030" under the minimum is a recipe for disaster.

You my friend are a hack, a slob when it comes to anything concerning guns and I find it sad that you just throw crap out there for all to see. If you want to destroy your guns fine, go for it just let us know what range you go to so we can stay far away but you posting a dangerous and pathetic loading recipe on this forum is truly a terrible thing to do. You disgust me.

Oh, really? This I clipped from the 2002 reloaders guide.


So, I guess you don't know it all after all, right? 8)

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Here is AA's newest data, you know for 2014, it can be found here:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/

Your 2002 data is featuring a 115gr FMJ loaded at a minimum of 1.095", that's not a oversized HP loaded at 1.040". Do you have any clue of what loading under a listed length does to case pressure? I ask again that you post this crud in the reload sub forum, the boys need a laugh, it's the weekend.

You like to post really crappy out of date data. You have another dumb post quoting data that has been exposed as dangerous from a 44 year old Speer manual. You should just stop, you are making a fool out of yourself. You really are from that planet of toothless, one handed, one eyed, blown up dipsticks.


ACCURATE NO.5
90 SF RHFP 5.6 1,101 6.2 1,223 33,540 1.120
95 BARNES TAC-XP 5.7 1,079 6.5 1,218 33,966 1.160
100 SF RHFP 5.2 1,031 5.8 1,145 34,600 1.120

115 NOSLER JHP 5.4gr 1,007fps 6.3gr 1,137fps 34,913PSI 1.077 mOAL for load

This is the one I noted, it's loaded at 1.077" minimum OAL and your "load" is set at 1.040" with a similar but oversized bullet. BTW you should PM Dale53 he's the one that pointed out that the No.8 Speer was just a mess. He's a member here and a very often quoted reloading guru.
....but you have all those awesome old manuals to go by, so why ask?

115 SIERRA FMJ 5.4 1,021 6.3 1,148 34,200 1.100
115 BARNES XPB 5.0 959 5.5 1,065 33,880 1.160
115 (P) BERRY RNDS 5.7 1,023 6.5 1,145 33,667 1.130
115 (P) RAIN RN 4.8 1,017 5.9 1,150 33,854 1.140
115 (P) RAIN HP 4.8 1,005 5.7 1,125 34,850 1.100
115 (L) LC RN 5.2 1,043 6.1 1,179 34,420 1.070
124 HDY XTP 4.8 905 5.7 1,075 34,500 1.060
124 WIN FMJ 5.3 950 6.0 1,075 34,555 1.150
124 REM GS 5.7 1,002 6.5 1,127 34,544 1.145
124 SPEER GDHP 5.2 938 5.9 1,061 34,658 1.105
124 (P) BERRY RN 5.6 977 6.3 1,104 34,132 1.160
124 (P) BERRY HBFP 5.0 948 5.8 1,069 34,456 1.060
124 (P) RAIN HP 5.3 961 6.1 1,085 34,392 1.110
124 (P) RAIN RN 5.6 986 6.4 1,118 34,451 1.160
124 (L) LC RN 4.7 957 5.4 1,078 34,557 1.050
125 SIERRA JHP 4.6 903 5.3 1,022 34,552 1.035
147 REM GS 4.7 864 5.5 974 34,444 1.165
147 SPEER TMJ FN 4.3 826 5.1 938 34,969 1.130
147 (P) RAIN TRN 4.8 855 5.5 967 34,884 1.160
147 (L) LC FP 4.4 863 5.1 976 33,898 1.145

 

[5of7]

Here is AA's newest data, you know for 2014, it can be found here:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/

Your 2002 data is featuring a 115gr FMJ loaded at a minimum of 1.095", that's not a oversized HP loaded at 1.040". Do you have any clue of what loading under a listed length does to case pressure? I ask again that you post this crud in the reload sub forum, the boys need a laugh, it's the weekend.

You like to post really crappy out of date data. You have another dumb post quoting data that has been exposed as dangerous from a 44 year old Speer manual. You should just stop, you are making a fool out of yourself. You really are from that planet of toothless, one handed, one eyed, blown up dipsticks.

First of all..Didn't you say that I was on your "foe list?" So much for personal discipline.. :lol:

Secondly, it is not OAL that is important in small cases like the 9MM, it is SEATING DEPTH. SEATING DEPTH determines the volume under the base of the bullet and can be an important factor when maximum pressures are approached.

Now here is where it gets complicated for a guy like you who only knows how to follow instructions.......if you measure the length of the 110 gr. XTP bullet, and the length on the 115 gr. FMJ bullet, you will find that the 110 gr. XTP is about .070" SHORTER than the 115 gr. FMJ......HENCE the SEATING DEPTH is the same in both cases, even though the OAL is shorter.

As to the "oversized bullet," it ain't. I already posted that I slugged the bore of this particular 9MM and it is .357....not .355, HENCE the bullet is NOT oversized, it is actually the proper size for this particular weapon, and this particular weapon is what I have been talking about all along.

Incidently, the gun shoots groups 1/2 the size when using the .357 bullet, than when the groups are shot with .355" bullets.

All of these things that I have shared with you are things that have been wide-spread knowledge for many many years. After you have been handloading for as long as I have, then, just maybe, you will learn some of the more complex techniques.

Lastly, if anyone here is ''making a fool" of himself, it is you, not I.

Cheers.... 8)

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Here is AA's newest data, you know for 2014, it can be found here:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/

Your 2002 data is featuring a 115gr FMJ loaded at a minimum of 1.095", that's not a oversized HP loaded at 1.040". Do you have any clue of what loading under a listed length does to case pressure? I ask again that you post this crud in the reload sub forum, the boys need a laugh, it's the weekend.

You like to post really crappy out of date data. You have another dumb post quoting data that has been exposed as dangerous from a 44 year old Speer manual. You should just stop, you are making a fool out of yourself. You really are from that planet of toothless, one handed, one eyed, blown up dipsticks.

First of all..Didn't you say that I was on your "foe list?" So much for personal discipline.. :lol:

I'm the OP, Dipstick, pound sand!

Secondly, it is not OAL that is important in small cases like the 9MM, it is SEATING DEPTH. SEATING DEPTH determines the volume under the base of the bullet and can be an important factor when maximum pressures are approached.

OAL is a listed tolerance. I know what the actual lengths are for the Nosler 115gr HP bullet in the AA data I posted. I also know the length of both the 115gr Hornady HP and that of the 110gr Hornady HP that you are supposedly using. It doesn't take a genius to figure the seating depth from those as I know the workable lengths. The differences are a total of .007", between the three.

Now here is where it gets complicated for a guy like you who only knows how to follow instructions.......if you measure the length of the 110 gr. XTP bullet, and the length on the 115 gr. FMJ bullet, you will find that the 110 gr. XTP is about .070" SHORTER than the 115 gr. FMJ......HENCE the SEATING DEPTH is the same in both cases, even though the OAL is shorter.

So what's the length of this FMJ that you refer to? Do you have one on hand or is this just a guess. It's a guess isn't it? ....and that's very sloppy as FMJ RN or FMJ doesn't mean anything if you don't have it in front of you. The ogive, shape and the weight distribution of FMJ's varies greatly. I know because I have loaded so many different 9mm FMJ RN and flat nose and hollow points that it would make your head spin. BTW, I have both of those bullets, you're not even close on the length differential. I'll post pictures of all these things if you would like.

As to the "oversized bullet," it ain't. I already posted that I slugged the bore of this particular 9MM and it is .357....not .355, HENCE the bullet is NOT oversized, it is actually the proper size for this particular weapon, and this particular weapon is what I have been talking about all along.

You are not reloading for a revolver, this is a semi-auto, no safe zones here. When reloading manuals don't list loads for 9mm using .357" or 358" bullets and most warn against this, I listen.
Your load is just reckless and your defense of it makes you a slob.

Incidently, the gun shoots groups 1/2 the size when using the .357 bullet, than when the groups are shot with .355" bullets.

Don't care and really don't believe you. I doubt that you even load this at all, which makes it all that more sick. Hey why don't you post an awesome picture of it?

All of these things that I have shared with you are things that have been wide-spread knowledge for many many years. After you have been handloading for as long as I have, then, just maybe, you will learn some of the more complex techniques.

You have no knowledge, you are a dipstick.

Lastly, if anyone here is ''making a fool" of himself, it is you, not I.

Take all this to the reloading section of this forum as I have asked you to do several times. We will see who is the fool.




Cheers.... 8)

Get off this thread, Dipstick, take it to the reloading forum. Probably afraid to get what you deserve for your stupidity.

 

[5of7]

OAL is a listed tolerance. I know what the actual lengths are for the Nosler 115gr HP bullet in the AA data I posted. I also know the length of both the 115gr Hornady HP and that of the 110gr Hornady HP that you are supposedly using. It doesn't take a genius to figure the seating depth from those as I know the workable lengths. The differences are a total of .007", between the three.

The data I listed from the AA guide was for the Hornady 115 FMJ. not the Hornady HP. and the listed OAL is 1.09" The difference between that bullet and the 110 gr. XTP is indeed .070"....not .007"

So what's the length of this FMJ that you refer to? Do you have one on hand or is this just a guess. It's a guess isn't it? ....and that's very sloppy as FMJ RN or FMJ doesn't mean anything if you don't have it in front of you. The ogive, shape and the weight distribution of FMJ's varies greatly. I know because I have loaded so many different 9mm FMJ RN and flat nose and hollow points that it would make your head spin. BTW, I have both of those bullets, you're not even close on the length differential. I'll post pictures of all these things if you would like.

The 115 FMJ is .562" and the length of the 110 gr XTP is.492" You do the math, I did it and got .070''. If you had the Hornady FMJ in hand, why then did you cite a difference between a Hornady 115 HP amd the 110 XTP? trying to cloud the issue? Did you think you could pull a stupid stunt like that and get away with it? :lol:

You are not reloading for a revolver, this is a semi-auto, no safe zones here. When reloading manuals don't list loads for 9mm using .357" or 358" bullets and most warn against this, I listen.
Your load is just reckless and your defense of it makes you a slob.

Doncha 'spose that is because you haven't the skill set required to determine the actual groove diameter of your guns? Look, as I said before, I have been handloading ammunition for 61 years, starting when I was 16 years old. I am a Journeyman Machinist with 40 years experience. I do know how to take these measurements, even if you don't, so if you lack the expertise to approach handloading in a manner that is above your pay grade, by all means don't, but please don't attempt to critique your betters, it makes you look foolish.

Don't care and really don't believe you. I doubt that you even load this at all, which makes it all that more sick. Hey why don't you post an awesome picture of it?
You have no knowledge, you are a dipstick.

Take all this to the reloading section of this forum as I have asked you to do several times. We will see who is the fool.

Get off this thread, Dipstick, take it to the reloading forum. Probably afraid to get what you deserve for your stupidity.

[/quote][/quote]

You don't believe me.....is that the best you have? Don't you think that a bullet that matches the groove diameter of the gun it is fired from is more accurate that a bullet that is .002" UNDERSIZED? If you don't believe that, then I think that speaks volumes about your youth and inexperience.

I am posting in this section because this is where you attacked me. I have trouble running from an attack, even if it comes from children.

And now....are you expelling me from this thread? Gimme a break. :lol: