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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:45 pm 
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Hunter

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A friend has a Super SS .22 3 screw that he purchased new in 1972. It's still unfired in the original box w/both cylinders and paperwork. It came new with the transfer bar conversion. I was certain he had sent it back to Ruger for conversion but swears he didn't. He ought to know. But I called Ruger w/the serial number and they confirmed that it sold new as a converted model and referred to it as a "Transition Model". My question; does it have any collector value over and above a new standard 3 screw in the box w/6 1/2" barrel?

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Last edited by Hondo44 on Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Now that would be an interesting "transition" variation. I'm interested in what chet15 has to say,,,!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:10 pm 
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I never heard of a Old Model being shipped from the Factory with the conversion kit installed. This makes sense though, as that was the reason that they came out with the New Models, so as to make use of the "Transfer Bar System". You would have thought that they would have shipped all of the last Old Models with the Kit!!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:17 am 
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I've never heard of such a variation.

Now, let's see..... the conversion kit didn't surface until around '82, IIRC.....
(Ruger and His Guns, pages 177-179.)

Hmmmm.........

flatgate


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:14 am 
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never mind

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:15 am 
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Would be tough to believe on this one but anything is possible I guess.
The issue I would have is why would Ruger come out with a two-pin series of New Models in 1973 instead of selling their Old Model 3-screw style revolvers right off the bat with a transfer bar (if they really had such a conversion available at that time...and I've never seen a Ruger patent for such a critter, until 1981 or so. WBR was pretty tough on protecting his patents which give me even more reason to believe the conversion didn't happen till 1982). And changing all the equipment in 1973 over to two-pin SA manfacture instead of leaving it the way it was?? A lot of $.

And, if Ruger didn't have the concern of converting OM's with a transfer until the product came out in 1982 (10 years after the OM was discontinued) then why wouldn't he have patented the idea a lot sooner?
A lot of engineering $ went into a two-pin model so something doesn't seem right here. Ruger had about 8 years invested in NM design ('65 or so until '73) so at some point early on you'd think Ruger's engineers would have thought of a NM 3-screw pretty early on.

I would however be interested in the sn of the revolver and a copy of the letter from Ruger if possible. You can PM me on this if you wish.
Chet15


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:05 pm 
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Hunter

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chet15 wrote:
Would be tough to believe on this one but anything is possible I guess.
The issue I would have is why would Ruger come out with a two-pin series of New Models in 1973 instead of selling their Old Model 3-screw style revolvers right off the bat with a transfer bar (if they really had such a conversion available at that time...and I've never seen a Ruger patent for such a critter, until 1981 or so. WBR was pretty tough on protecting his patents which give me even more reason to believe the conversion didn't happen till 1982). And changing all the equipment in 1973 over to two-pin SA manfacture instead of leaving it the way it was?? A lot of $.

And, if Ruger didn't have the concern of converting OM's with a transfer until the product came out in 1982 (10 years after the OM was discontinued) then why wouldn't he have patented the idea a lot sooner?
A lot of engineering $ went into a two-pin model so something doesn't seem right here. Ruger had about 8 years invested in NM design ('65 or so until '73) so at some point early on you'd think Ruger's engineers would have thought of a NM 3-screw pretty early on.

I would however be interested in the sn of the revolver and a copy of the letter from Ruger if possible. You can PM me on this if you wish.
Chet15


Hi Chet,

The serial # is 60-16830. Paper work was included with the gun in which Ruger stated that the gun was a '"Transition 3 screw model" with the traditional half cock loading notch but was produced with a transfer bar and was safe to carry with 6 rounds.
The owner called Ruger recently. The woman who answered said that according to the serial number it was produced early in 1970 and was one of the earliest that was produced with the tansfer bar for safe loading with 6 rounds. She did not know how many were shipped new that way. A letter has not been obtained by the owner as yet. But I encouraged him to do so and will post if received. If I recall correctly, Ruger doesn't charge for a letter.

I will obtain a copy of the above referenced paperwork labeling this gun as a "Transition Model" that explained the safety benefits. I'll scan it and include in a future post. If it wasn't for this notice accompanying the gun new, the lack of old parts and the phone call I still would tend to think it was sent back for conversion by a dealer who had it in inventory after the conversion offer was announced by Ruger.

I'm starting to think this old gentleman's memory might be a little faulty about when he purchased the gun new. Perhaps it was old stock that wasn't released to the market until several years later. You know similar to the lightweight 2nds released 4 or 5 years after the first run was sold out. I've collected Rugers many years and read everything I could find but never heard of these "Transition Models".

Thx,

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:52 am 
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When I first read this,, I too wondered a lot. Especially since the safety conversion parts were not available for several years after the introduction of the NM. But,, as we all like to say,, "never say never" with Ruger. And my thoughts were about the POSSIBILITY of an OM,, not shipped until many years after the demise of them in favor of the NM,, and before it got shipped,, it recieved the conversion.
Now that Chad has weighed in,, and more info is hopefully coming,, it could be an interesting one,, or something as simple as a fuzzy memory,,,!
We patiently await more info.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:22 am 
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OK, I'm calling Bull on this thread. :D

WBR said (p. 178, Ruger and His Guns) that "one winter (1979-80) I was down in Florida on the Titania and I had a lot of spare time, sitting there on the deck. One day, for some reason or another, I was thinking: Was it really impossible, as General Hatcher had publicly stated, or was there some possibility if I abandoned some basic assumptions and found others that were more productive? And I said, all right; I won't make any rules to myself about what's good enough, or artistic enough, or sturdy enough, or what. I'll just take what I can get and see how it looks.

And, by God, it emerged very quickly. I had to make space for a different transfer bar, and instead of having a slot inside the sidewall of the frame, I put a recess in the side of the hammer............."

So, what I see here is that there's no way to "retrofit" the NM Lockwork into a OM revolver. (We all knew that already, but I thought I'd include the common knowledge within my post.) It took many more years of effort before WBR's genius solved the problem.

Hmm, what if the grip frame was removed from the so-called early conversion gun. If it had the R mark, which was NOT utilized until after the introduction of the "conversion kit" program, early/mid 1982, would that convince anyone that the gun was converted post 1982?

What about the statements made by Factory Personnel? I've witnessed them making gross errors in the past. A request to speak to a Supervisor or a "written request" for data has always provided me with what certainly appeared as the truth.

Just My Humble Opinion,

flatgate


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:23 am 
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Hmm....yea, am curious also.
Ruger played with the NM concept for a long time so maybe one of their prototypes got out somehow. Ruger is known to have been pretty tight lipped about such things back then though, and to have such a gun in the public without the proper patents...???
What model did they say the gun was shipped as....as far as catalog number. SC5 or SC6 would have been the three screw versions depending on the barrel length (5-1/2" or 6-1/2"). If truly shipped with the transfer bar as the factory says, then there is a good chance it should have a different catalog number as well.

By the way, my old gun safety classes told me that any firearm is only as safe as the person carrying it. Do not depend on safety's, transfer bars or whatever contraption while thinking they are totally safe. Man-made products always fail, no matter the security precautions. At least they should always be treated in this manner. Am just saying....because I've heard of transfer bars breaking also (rare cases).

Chet15


Last edited by chet15 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:32 am 
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Ruger did patent several different ways to get a NM mechanism into an SA revolver. Started doing this with the Bearcat of all things because it was cheaper for them to use the Bearcat.
Believe I've heard of at least three different NM mechanisms patented in the early '70's including one with a manual safety built into the top of the hammer. The user had to press a knurled wheel in front of the spur to make safe or ready to fire.
If these were the ones that were patented, I wonder how many other mechanisms were thought of that did work but weren't patented (maybe none considering WBR's correct "patent all things" mentality).
I know, just specualtion...but keeping an open mind.
And I don't have a NM in front of me, but they don't have the side cut away to accept the transfer bar??? I don't remember that anyway.

Am still stuck on "if it worked back then, why make it a two-pin model". This is what is making me doubtful.

I guess a pic of the conversion parts would answer the question, as well as a pic of the bottom of hte cylinder frame to see if that little "R" or eagle is stamped there.
Chet15


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:49 am 
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chet15 wrote:
And I don't have a NM in front of me, but they don't have the side cut away to accept the transfer bar???
Chet15


No, the NM has a cast in slot in the cylinder frame that permits the transfer bar to function. The OM conversion kit's include a hammer that has a "cast in" transfer bar slot.

The New Bearcat/OM Bearcat Conversion Kit Lockwork has the cast in slot in the hammer.

Image

flatgate


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Hunter

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Original post: "A friend has a Super SS .22 3 screw that he purchased new in 1972. It's still unfired in the original box w/both cylinders and paperwork. It came new with the transfer bar conversion. I was certain he had sent it back to Ruger for conversion but swears he didn't. He ought to know. But I called Ruger w/the serial number and they confirmed that it sold new as a converted model and referred to it as a "Transition Model". My question; does it have any collector value over and above a new standard 3 screw in the box w/6 1/2" barrel?"

UPDATE: I have observed the paper work and original box for the above gun # 60-16830.

Bottom line: it does nothing to substantiate this gun as anything other than just another converted old model, but here are the facts ;
1. The box is serial numbered to the gun and marked SC6 just like any other.
2. It came with two instruction manuals: A standard old model and one identical to those returned with a gun when sent for conversion dated 5-85.
3. An additional yellow sheet in the box, 5"x8", warned about difficulty cocking the hammer could be a partially retracted cyl pin. Not dated.
4. The gun # 60-16830 does indeed look unfired. Owner did not want me to dissassemble to look for any stamping like the 'R' or something else on bottom of frame under the trigger guard.
5. Date of original gun sale: Owner is old and not really sure now, when pressed by me, when he bought the gun new But sure he did buy it new in a gunshop.

6. Info from Ruger: as stated, the woman at Ruger asked for the serial number and after looking it up, stated it was a "Transition Model" and was originally sold new already converted. She could NOT tell me when it was sold.

Conclusion: I think anyone that wants further closure on this issue will need to call Ruger to verify what I was told to convince themselves. Sorry But I'm unable to provide any other proof. Thanks for all of your help and if anyone learns any more, Please post.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:34 am 
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Hondo44 wrote:
Original post: "A friend has a Super SS .22 3 screw that he purchased new in 1972. It's still unfired in the original box w/both cylinders and paperwork. It came new with the transfer bar conversion. I was certain he had sent it back to Ruger for conversion but swears he didn't. He ought to know. But I called Ruger w/the serial number and they confirmed that it sold new as a converted model and referred to it as a "Transition Model". My question; does it have any collector value over and above a new standard 3 screw in the box w/6 1/2" barrel?"

UPDATE: I have observed the paper work and original box for the above gun # 60-16830.

Bottom line: it does nothing to substantiate this gun as anything other than just another converted old model, but here are the facts ;
1. The box is serial numbered to the gun and marked SC6 just like any other.
2. It came with two instruction manuals: A standard old model and one identical to those returned with a gun when sent for conversion dated 5-85.
3. An additional yellow sheet in the box, 5"x8", warned about difficulty cocking the hammer could be a partially retracted cyl pin. Not dated.
4. The gun # 60-16830 does indeed look unfired. Owner did not want me to dissassemble to look for any stamping like the 'R' or something else on bottom of frame under the trigger guard.
5. Date of original gun sale: Owner is old and not really sure now, when pressed by me, when he bought the gun new But sure he did buy it new in a gunshop.

6. Info from Ruger: as stated, the woman at Ruger asked for the serial number and after looking it up, stated it was a "Transition Model" and was originally sold new already converted. She could NOT tell me when it was sold.

Conclusion: I think anyone that wants further closure on this issue will need to call Ruger to verify what I was told to convince themselves. Sorry But I'm unable to provide any other proof. Thanks for all of your help and if anyone learns any more, Please post.


As the Lady from Ruger said it was shipped from the factory converted but could not give a shipping date. (Wonder why she could not find a shipping date?) I bet this gun was setting at the factory, for some reason and when it was shipped it was after the time that Ruger was putting the transfer bar kit into all "Old Style Rugers". Another thought, maybe this gun was returned to the factory for some reason, after Ruger started putting the converson kit on "Old Models", and Ruger shipped it as a "Used" gun. Ruger doesn't always stamp a "U" in the serial number. What we need is a shipping date, and I wonder why the lady at Ruger couldn't supply it???


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:41 am 
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Really interesting thread.

I'd bet IF it actually shipped with the "kit" in place it was a "late ship" gun, perhaps a "leftover" and they decided to put the kit in it just to make everybody happy.

Emphasis on the "IF" there.

It occurs to me that the "conversion kit" wasn't available until considerably after the New Models came out because after the New Models were available somebody got to worrying about all the Old Models out there and the implication that they were somehow "unsafe" since Ruger had gone to all the trouble to develop the New Models. Lawyers have a way of driving that kinda thought process.

:)


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