Any gun which doesn't fire

Colonel Daddy said:

blume357 said:

I've never understood the double / split trigger idea... you are still pulling the trigger, so how in the world is that a safety?

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My thoughts exactly. Who the heck thought that putting a safety in the trigger was a good idea when the safety and trigger are pulled at the same time? Gotta be something I am overlooking because it seems lots of folks are using them! :?

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To minimize the risk of a dropped gun firing when it hits the ground.

D'oh...just saw post above. Perhaps that's confirmation.

When selling to a department armed with double action revolvers it allowed the Glock sales reps to say it has a trigger safety but works just like your Smith & Wesson Model 10's.

blume357 said:

I've never understood the double / split trigger idea... you are still pulling the trigger, so how in the world is that a safety?
With that said, I currently carry the LC9s pro. I like the size weight and feel of the little pistol but really am starting to rethink the very light trigger. All my other semi-auto (well most of them) are double/single action with hammers and no safety, decock only. I'm thinking my next purchase for carry will be a Sig P290 which is a semi-auto double action only with no safety.. but about an 8lb trigger pull.

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Blume,
Isn't it just as easy to practice trigger control? :<)
Blackie

It is but it is also the one thing I think most people have a problem with... I think I have good trigger control ... but then while I was running the course at the East Coast Gathering... Contender pointed out I often had my finger on the trigger while moving from one station to another....

I really don't see the 'problem' with a double action only pistol for carry... one comment above was a guy who switch to a Glock shot himself in the leg because he was taught to start pulling the trigger on his double action while drawing from the holster... well the answer to that is too obvious.. .he was taught wrong! At least I have been taught by more than one place that you don't put your finger on the trigger until you have your target sighted in. So, I'll stick with that.

I think the idea of a safety on anything single action or half cocked should require two fingers... but then a whole lot of folks like Glocks and I have to say I like my Ruger LC9s.... but I don't think it is the pistol for the average person.

The ridiculously heavy trigger with lots of slop, creap etc. found on DAO requires extra practice over a SAO as does a double/single, unless it's used as a single action.

The draw with a finger on the trigger to begin cocking a double action is a common trick and a very bad idea. But it's still taught by some LEO and competition shooters.

The advantage touted for a trigger safety is that the gun will not discharge of struck or dropped while a round is in the chamber. As recently found with the SIG this isn't so. As pointed out a trigger safety doesn't prevent accidental discharges! The advantage is that it eliminates one problem area in that under stress failing to release the thumb safety is a common error.

Relying on a safety is simply a bad idea as is relying on a DAO!

I was brought up with double action revolvers but always taught to shoot single action with them.... so, I understand the advantage of a crisp snap to bust a cap... when you are hunkered down and squeezing the trigger and not only attempting to have the gun fire just as you let your breath out but also between heartbeats then to hit that dime sized target at 100-300 yards... it all makes a difference... but when the target is say the size of wash tub and 15ft away...... I'd prefer to be on the safe side. I've pulled the trigger on a number of double action guns.... most are pretty bad. The Sig P290 is not bad... it is a long pull but smooth and consistent. Hopefully I'll get back to the range in then next day or so (rain) and try it some more... I did run a through mags though it two weeks ago and it was dead on (3" group) at 25ft..... but my point is a carry gun does not need to have a target grade trigger on it.

The biggest reason I chose the Kimber Micro .380 over the LCP II was the manual safety and passive firing pin block. The latter has neither.

I have a stock Ruger SR9c and absolutely love the pistol. It has a better trigger than nearly any other striker fired pistol which I have shot. Not that I have shot many others, but because of its relatively light trigger, I am glad it has a manual safety.

I like Blackhawks comment that was a well stated explanation of the trigger safety.


Job41

The real problem with the lack of a manual safety on a striker fired weapon is that people aren't machines. They make mistakes. The track record of the strikers without a manual safety leads me to believe that they are absolutely necessary. Sure, keep your booger finger off the trigger and it won't go off. If you think that you will do that every time, without fail, you are fooling yourself. There are incidents of folks swearing they didn't put their finger on the trigger until on the target, despite being shown video of them doing just that.

A manual safety is not a substitute for proper procedure. It is an additional layer of protection.

Carry what you are comfortable with, but make it a logical, informed decision.

In the matters (dilemma's?) of trigger safeties VS manual safeties, engineering differences in terms of whether the striker is "half cocked" while the gun is being carried, the question of DA "only" designs VS designs which revert to SA after the first shot...Myself, I find it quite mind-boggling that all of those (and more) things get discussed (debated?) as often as they do and have been for as long as they have, when the answer to all of it comes down to one rather simple thing:
To paraphrase the late Col. Cooper...at it's core, adding a DA feature to a semi-auto side arm "is an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem".
Just to expound on that a bit...as I recall, the perceived 'problem' was that carrying a 'cocked 'n locked' SA semi-auto was so scary to look at that many believed that it must somehow be inherently unsafe, and/or that that the average gun owner/shooter was too stupid to switch-off a thumb safety at the proper time.
Also as I recall, it was S&W whom first capitalized on those fears, which of course prompted other manufacturers to follow along with their own similar (or different) designs, and so forth and so on, right on up until the point we are at today...which is also to say that most all of the so called "improvements" we've seen in semi-auto side arms were not only born from misunderstanding/ignorance/fear, but to a large degree, a need to address (real) problems which simply did not exist with the SA/hammer-fired guns which were being replaced...

just something to think about, that's all...no offense meant to anyone.

That's all I know about that.
I'll return you now to your regularly scheduled programing.

DGW

I am not going to carry any pistol that does not have a safety to block the firing pin; one that I can turn on and off, or is not double action only. We carry our firearms 99.9% of the time, and use them perhaps .1% of the time; if that. Safety for ourselves and others is of paramount importance. Anyone who knows their weapon and how to shoot it, can manage a safety with ease. The safety gives you just that. Safety from unintentional discharge. My LC9S has a safety. All of my Ruger pistols have safeties, except the LCP and that is double action only. I like it that way.

I agree but DAO is inherently dangerous unless you do a lot of practice not just carry. I've seen a lot of competitions and train fire courses where even experienced competitors look startled when the gun doesn't fire then take the safety off.