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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:11 pm 
Bearcat

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 39
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Gents -
Got a question regarding slightly late carry up - on a NM Blackhawk Flat Top .45 Convertible (medium frame), after the addition of a SBH Hammer.

Before the hammer swap, carry up was on the money - cylinder locked up at the same time as hammer reached full cock.

After the hammer swap, cylinder locks up just barely after hammer reaches full cock. This is not really noticeable during normal field operation (function is otherwise great), but the nit picker in me wants it right.

Research indicates (please correct me if I'm wrong) that either "stretching" the pawl - then stoning the lower step, or obtaining a longer pawl (maybe one that matches the hammer?), would be the most likely solutions.

As the original pawl matches the original hammer, I'm hesitant to put it through the heat & beat / stretching process. Planned to order another pawl (they are cheap), stone if necessary / possible, or worst case, try my hand at the stretching / stoning process.

Went to order a pawl from Brownells, but noticed several different P/N's. My understanding is that the NM Blackhawk .45 Convertible (medium frame), uses the same lock work, as the NM Vaqueros. Would the addition of the SBH hammer, require an SBH pawl? Suspect at least a few of you guys have been there / done that - at some point, & your thoughts / recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

NM BH Flat Top
https://ruger.com/products/newModelBlac ... /5241.html

SBH Hammer (installed)
https://www.brownells.com/schematics/ru ... #r28sid723

OPTIONS:

New Vaquero Pawl
https://www.brownells.com/schematics/ru ... 9679sid935

NM BH Pawl
https://www.brownells.com/schematics/ru ... 8863sid721

SBH Pawl
https://www.brownells.com/schematics/ru ... 8863sid723

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:45 pm 
Single-Sixer

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:48 am
Posts: 268
Location: SE Pennsylvania
As I recall, when I had my midframe 41 built using a SBH hammer there was a notation on the invoice about installing a longer pawl.

I had previously home gunsmithed a SBH hammer into a midframe 44spl with no problems but I can't say that I couldn't induce a problem by cocking very slowly.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:35 pm 
Bearcat

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 39
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
rkrcpa wrote:
As I recall, when I had my midframe 41 built using a SBH hammer there was a notation on the invoice about installing a longer pawl.



Thanks for your input. Kinda confirms my suspicion that I’m not the first to run into this...

Any idea which pawl was used?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:10 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:01 pm
Posts: 7205
Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia
Occasionally, slight differences in tolerances will result in the issue you have when swapping hammers.

I would get the a new pawl. If it's too long it's easier to hone the 2nd notch a little than stretching your original.

HOWEVER: you must get a free spin pawl from a New Vaq or NM Flat Top because they have the Reverse Indexing Pawl System (which aligns chambers with the loading channel). The only large frame/SBH size pawls of this type are used in the Flat Top NM Blackhawk 41 and 44 Mags, and New Vaq 44 Mags.

But don't buy one from Brownells, get one free from Ruger by calling (336) 949-5200. They're great about sending you small parts under $20 at no cost.


#1. You also may have noticed the SBH hammer base is not flush with grip frame ears. SBH hammers are still made in the pre 1998 pattern before the rear surface of main frames (and all grip frame ears to match) were raised so all main frames could be used for Bisley models. Only new designed hammers like flat top and New Vaquero hammers bases (including the Vaq Montado wide hammer) are enlarged for a proper flush fit with the enlarged grip frame ears.

Montado hammer:

Image

#2. MY SHORTCUT FOR REMOVING JUST HAMMER and/or PAWL in New Models:

Recognize, when JUST NEEDING to remove the hammer and/or pawl, you do not need to hassle with the PESKY LOADING GATE SPRING, pull the trigger pin, nor trigger/transfer bar. Once you remove the grip frame, the hammer pin is the only other part you need to remove. After that, just pull the hammer back and all the way down, then depress the hammer plunger up into the base of the hammer with a small tipped screwdriver to clear the trigger extension with hole in it where the transfer bar connects to it. Let the hammer & pawl fall back, down and out. Reinstall the hammer and pawl back in the same way they came out. Push the plunger in by pushing it against the trigger extension just like you did with the tip of the small screwdriver, and the hammer will slip by the trigger extension. Piece o’ cake.

NOTE: Occasionally a hammer change that doesn't cock or just barely cocks is because it's hitting the back of the slot in the grip frame. I have had to slightly lengthen the slot with a few file strokes.
If either the trigger or hammer pin are snug fits, after they’re removed the first time, it’s the opportunity to polish them so they’re slip fits to put back in and remove the next time.

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Ruger single action "collector, accumulator, builder and shooter"
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:02 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:01 pm
Posts: 7205
Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia
#3. AFTER CHANGING HAMMERS IN NEW MODELS:

The first thing to check is the transfer bar clearance with hammer for reliable firing pin function. When swapping hammers between two guns, it often helps To swap transfer bars as well for proper ignition and to insure the safety feature still works correctly.

TO TEST HAMMER/TRANSFER BAR FOR MISS-FIRES:
With hammer fully cocked, press on the transfer bar to extend the firing pin and observe how far thru the recoil shield it protrudes. Now keep the trigger pulled back, drop the hammer and observe the firing pin again. If firing pin protrudes the same amount, you’re good to go. If it doesn't protrude the same amount, you need to remove just enough metal from the top face of the hammer nose so the transfer bar is pushed tight against the firing pin and the frame. If you remove too much, the transfer bar will not perform its safety function and will be pinched. Also make sure hammer has no friction or contact with grip frame ears around its base to slow its fall and you may have miss-fires; another potential issue when making hammer changes.

IF TRIGGER DOESN'T RETURN, TRANSFER BAR IS PINCHED AND SAFETY IS NOT WORKING:
If the transfer bar is hanging up under the hammer face, since it's connected to the trigger, it prevents the trigger from returning. The transfer bar is slightly too thick. If both ends of the trigger return spring are connected (under the grips), or even if you have only one leg of the spring connected it should pull down the transfer bar if it's the correct thickness. When this happens, the transfer bar safety function will not work. If the gun were dropped, a live round in the chamber under the hammer will fire.

This is not uncommon however, and it's a very simple fix. File the second step of the hammer face, counting from the top, just a bit until the bar no longer hangs up. Don't take too much off or you'll have miss-fires. If that happens file a little more off the top step of the hammer.

IF YOU HAD TO MODIFY HAMMER NOSE:
At the range, double check the safety function by loading a live round in the next chamber to cycle under the hammer, point down range, cock the hammer, hold with thumb, release the trigger to uncock the hammer, take finger off trigger and release your thumb to let the hammer fall. The round will not fire if safety transfer bar is functioning correctly.

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Ruger single action "collector, accumulator, builder and shooter"
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:22 pm 
Bearcat

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 39
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Hondo44 wrote:
Occasionally, slight differences in tolerances will result in the issue you have when swapping hammers.

I would get the SBH pawl. If it's too long it's easier to hone the 2nd notch a little than stretching your original.

But don't buy one from Brownells, get one free from Ruger by calling (336) 949-5200. They're great about sending you small parts under $20 at no cost.


Thanks for your input.

To clarify, is the SBH pawl a bit longer than the NM Vaquero / NMBH flat top frame pawl - which is original to my NM Blackhawk flat top? Or do you recommend the SBH pawl, because of the SBH hammer installation? Or both?

I'd much rather fit a slightly oversize part, than try to stretch one - that is slightly under size.

Additionally, my understanding is that the mid frame NM Vaquero / NMBH flat top pawls are "free spin". Would a current SBH pawl require a free spin cut modification?

I was thinking about also ordering a few extra items (cylinder latch spring / plunger, pawl spring / plunger, cylinder rotational stop spring / plunger) at the same time. Although not a lot of $$, your suggestion to call Ruger for the parts is a good thought. I'm wondering though, if they would even supply a SBH pawl, for installation in a mid frame flat top - required due to a "kitchen table" hammer swap... Some manufacturers can get a little funny about product modifications. Any thoughts on that?

_________________
"Sometimes you make eight - sometimes you hit dirt"

Regards - GCF


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:04 pm 
Bearcat

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 39
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Hondo44 wrote:
Occasionally, slight differences in tolerances will result in the issue you have when swapping hammers.

I would get the a new pawl. If it's too long it's easier to hone the 2nd notch a little than stretching your original.

HOWEVER: you must get a free spin pawl from a New Vaq or NM Flat Top because they have the Reverse Indexing Pawl System (which aligns chambers with the loading channel). The only large frame/SBH size pawls of this type are used in the Flat Top NM Blackhawk 41 and 44 Mags, and New Vaq 44 Mags.

But don't buy one from Brownells, get one free from Ruger by calling (336) 949-5200. They're great about sending you small parts under $20 at no cost.


#1. You also may have noticed the SBH hammer base is not flush with grip frame ears. SBH hammers are still made in the pre 1998 pattern before the rear surface of main frames (and all grip frame ears to match) were raised so all main frames could be used for Bisley models. Only new designed hammers like flat top and New Vaquero hammers bases (including the Vaq Montado wide hammer) are enlarged for a proper flush fit with the enlarged grip frame ears.

Montado hammer:

Image



Just re-read your (edited?) post, & understand a New Vaq or NM Flat Top pawl is what must be ordered. Hopefully they come a bit oversize...

And actually NO, until you mentioned it, I had NOT noticed SBH hammer base not being flush w/ the grip frame ears. Just when I was starting to feel pretty good about things, too... Now it's gonna' poke me in the eye - every time I open the safe.

I would have bought a Montado hammer originally, but they seem to be made of Unobtainium. Didn't see one available anywhere. Guess I need to keep looking.

Really nice piece there, BTW. Yours?

As always, your posts with tech tips, are mega useful / informational. Thank you again for your input!

_________________
"Sometimes you make eight - sometimes you hit dirt"

Regards - GCF


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:48 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:01 pm
Posts: 7205
Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia
gcf wrote:

Just re-read your (edited?) post, & understand a New Vaq or NM Flat Top pawl is what must be ordered. Hopefully they come a bit oversize...

And actually NO, until you mentioned it, I had NOT noticed SBH hammer base not being flush w/ the grip frame ears. Just when I was starting to feel pretty good about things, too... Now it's gonna' poke me in the eye - every time I open the safe.

I would have bought a Montado hammer originally, but they seem to be made of Unobtainium. Didn't see one available anywhere. Guess I need to keep looking.

Really nice piece there, BTW. Yours?

As always, your posts with tech tips, are mega useful / informational. Thank you again for your input!


GFC,

You're very welcome and thank you. Yes that's my NM FT 44, nothing real special but a fine shooter:
Image

Also with internal lock eliminated:
Image


Brownells is a little sparce on the correct pawls. The only pawl they offer that will work is this one listed for the New Vaquero (which of course is the same as the NM Flat Top BH):

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts ... 44196.aspx

Notice the little tail at the bottom of it that makes it a free spin pawl:
Image

RE: "Some manufacturers can get a little funny about product modifications." If you call Ruger for a pawl, they really don't care or take the time to care why you need it. They just want to know what gun it's for so they give you the right part: they need model, cal., and sometimes serial #. When I compare the large frame Flat Top and mid frame FT and NV pawls, You don't want a .44 (large frame size) pawl, contrary to what I posted, they're longer. The one for you NV should be oversize a bit for you to fit and correct the carry up.

And yes, to use the free spin pawl in a SBH or any other Ruger w/o the RIP System, it would need a 'divot' (modification that you asked about) cut in the top of the trigger guard strap to work.

Montado hammers go for about $100 each , two just sold on the forum's classified a week ago because they are 'unobtainium'. Power Customs sells theirs for not much more.

On newer guns when I use a SBH hammer I work down the ears on the grip frame flush with the hammer base.

Hope that helps,

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Ruger single action "collector, accumulator, builder and shooter"
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:14 am 
Bearcat

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 39
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Hondo44 wrote:
Yes that's my NM FT 44, nothing real special but a fine shooter:
Image

Also with internal lock eliminated:
Image



Outstanding! The stainless GF is a nice touch. Always like the balance of the shorter barrels too. Kinda' wish mine was 4 5/8"...


Couple shots of mine:

With original hammer & front sight
Image

Current w/ SBH hammer, & front sight courtesy of Two Dogs
Image

Interestingly, my 5.5" FT never included an internal lock. Not complaining mind you, just seems odd. Some do, some don't...

_________________
"Sometimes you make eight - sometimes you hit dirt"

Regards - GCF


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:26 pm 
Bearcat

Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 39
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Just to update:

Called Ruger to inquire about obtaining the correct New Vaq / BH, reverse indexing pawl. They said the firearm would need to be returned for pawl fitment. They were nice about it, but firm.

They did allow me to order springs / plungers for cyl latch, pawl, & cyl rotational stop. Even for a modest fee - no matter. Nice to have on hand, if needed.

Ordered the NV pawl (P/N KMVQ00701) from Brownells ($10 + change shipped).

If I was to do a hammer swap again, I'd probably order a pawl at the same time.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:51 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:01 pm
Posts: 7205
Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia
gcf wrote:
Outstanding! The stainless GF is a nice touch. Always like the balance of the shorter barrels too. Kinda' wish mine was 4 5/8"...

Couple shots of mine:

With original hammer & front sight
Image

Current w/ SBH hammer, & front sight courtesy of Two Dogs
Image

Interestingly, my 5.5" FT never included an internal lock. Not complaining mind you, just seems odd. Some do, some don't...


That's a beauty! The great advantage of the SS guns is the pinned in front sight blade. So easy to upgrade!

All NVs and FTs had locks until 2012 when the locks were eliminated.

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Jim
Ruger single action "collector, accumulator, builder and shooter"
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:59 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:01 pm
Posts: 7205
Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia
gcf wrote:
Just to update:

Called Ruger to inquire about obtaining the correct New Vaq / BH, reverse indexing pawl. They said the firearm would need to be returned for pawl fitment. They were nice about it, but firm.

They did allow me to order springs / plungers for cyl latch, pawl, & cyl rotational stop. Even for a modest fee - no matter. Nice to have on hand, if needed.

Ordered the NV pawl (P/N KMVQ00701) from Brownells ($10 + change shipped).

If I was to do a hammer swap again, I'd probably order a pawl at the same time.


Now that you mention it, I recall they were being stingy with free spin pawls. Want to be sure they have enough inventory for repairs and for their parts distributors. They began doing that with Montado hammers as well. At least you could get it from Brownells!

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