Leading count

Just wondering from you hard cast shooters. If you working on loads to reduce or close to eliminate leading how many shots are needed to be reasonably confident your not getting leading. I think I may have found a load that will cut my leading problem down or hopefully eliminate it. Rather than shoot 100 rounds and checking what is a reasonable round count to determine if you barrel is leading? In other words when should I start to see leading?

thanks

Leading the barrel isn't the top reason behind a specific load for me. I load for accuracy first and performance on target second. if I have a good, accurate load that leads, I'll work on the leading problem. Usually the "work up" goes hand in hand, as I can work on accuracy and leading at the same time with little effect from one to the other. 99% of my leading problems were from ill fitting bullets, and I have yet to achieve a totally lead free lead bullet load. Some alloys/charges/lubes will show slight leading at 50 rounds and some won't show any until well after 100+ rounds. I haven't had any heavy leading in mebbe 17 years and slight leading is easy to remove, just a part of gun cleaning after session...

Sorry I didn't answer your question on how many rounds will tell you if you load leads. Some "bad" loads (under sized, too hard, too fast) will lead enough to effect accuracy after 6 rounds. Some good loads (proper bullet to gun fit, good lube, and soft enough alloy) won't show any leading at 100 rounds...

Every gun is a rule unto itself when it comes to leading. There is no way to even make a guess with the little information you have given.

My suggestion would be to try the bullets you have at a medium velocity for the caliber and see what happens after a couple dozen shots on a clean barrel.
Some of the things that contribute to leading are. Poor fit of bullet to throats or bore.
Throats smaller than Groove diameter. Bullets cast too hard or soft for velocity range. Poor quality bullet lube or bullet design that dos not carry enough lube
(Most important in rifle shooting, bullet runs out of lube before exiting bore). Many times there are loading tricks that can overcome some of these problems but you need a problem to correct before you start changing things. Don't forget to slug the bore and shoot a bullet 1-3 thousandths larger than groove diameter. A bullet that is larger than a revolvers cylinder throats will be swaged down before it gets to the barrel. Not good for accuracy and a cause for major leading.

Get to shooting and let us know what you find out.

Thanks guys

I am shooting pretty hard bullets 21-22 in hardness. New to this hard cast stuff. These are bought bullets. The cylinder in my Ruger Redhawks measures .430 -.431 or pretty close. The bullets I am using are .430. Obviously a little small. I bought them not knowing what I was doing. Anyway started shooting light loads 850 fps. Pretty bad leading just after the forcing cone. I was told I was probably to lite in the charge for the hardness and size and to bump the powder up. I went to 1250 fps. I shot maybe 20 and really didn't see much leading at all. Ok there were a flake or two but not like I had before. I loaded a bunch more at the 1250 range and will try in a day or two to see where I am. I know the bullets are a bit undersize but that is what I have and I want to use them if I can. Thats the reason for the question. How many might it take to start to see a leading problem. It would be nice if I can use these things since they are local. Pretty fair price and no shipping since I can pick them up. If I have to ship them in they get more expensive of course. I plan to stick to plated in my 1894 .44mag for the lube problem in longer barrels. Don't shoot that one as much as the revolver anyway. I also have a Security Six I would like to try hard cast in but that will be determined by if I can work out the Redhawks leading. Measured the cylinder in the Security Six and if I remember correctly it was pretty close to .357.

As mentioned, size is king. I used to get hung up on hardness. I have had less issues and better results across the board with WW alloy air cooled.
I have seen leading in rough bores start in as little as two shots. On the other hand I did some test of sorts and ran nothing through the bore but a dry patch and a brush in the chamber to get lube residue out 1500+ rounds later, zero leading and no issues with accuracy.
I suggest a good cleaning of your barrel to remove any trace of carbon or gilding metal. I myself don't like to mix jacketed and cast in my guns, though I do know a lot of folks do. Never worked for me, maybe I am too picky.
Once leading starts for what ever reason it will not get better until it is removed.
On the carbon and gilding metal cleaning, I like Wipe Out. I have had good luck with it cleaning some milsurp rifles that had layers and layers of carbon and gilding metal built up over time.
Rough bores do cast no favors, but I have seen and owned some rough bores that didn't lead.
I have a GP 100 that leads then quits. Just a very slight amount just past the barrel threads. It does effect groups. They don't open but the whole group moves up and right. Takes about 18-24 rounds to get it fowled then it is fine.
Jeff

Thanks Is this Wipe Out a common cleaner or is it something I will have to order and not at a LGS? I check but just wondering.
The leading comes pretty much right out with Chore Boy. Not a hugh problem got get out. The Redhawks is new and haven't done a lot of range work with it. I will pay more attention to accuracy next time out. The Security Six is new to me. I've only shot plated in it so far. If I can get both to shoot lead well that will be the ticket. If it gets to the point were the cost is pretty much the same I'll stay with the plated. My 9mm's and 40's shoot lead fine no problems.

Another thought, if those bullets are bevel base and hard, it may be impossible to load them so they don't lead. Commercial casters like bevel base bullets because they drop from the mold easier but for shooting they are not the best. The hard crayon lube they use is also designed for ease of use and shipping but also not the best I use.
It sounds like you need to get into casting.

All guns are different.... as well as user experience. First, I've used bevel based bullets from day one, and I really feel, that it had nothing to do with leading. Dimensions are king... Bullet size, throat size, and an un-constricted bore. Proper bullet hardness can help overcome some leading problems... Remember that harder is not necessarily better. You want the bullet to obturate under pressure to seal the bore... Of course that contributes to better accuracy. The bullets I use are around 15 BHN, because I don't 'push' beyond 1100 in .357. My new 5.5 Ruger flattop .357 was good from the get go. Run a patch down the barrel after 100 rounds and it almost comes out 'clean'... So I just run one wet, one dry and done. Put a bore light in the barrel and it is just nice and 'shiny'. Just doesn't get any better. On the other hand, I had a real leading problems with a .45 Colt original Vaquero. After several cylinder full, you could see the lead in the barrel, and a brush pushed out flakes of it.... The bullet BHN was right for the pressure, but still lots of leading. Opened up throats to .4525, and set forcing cone to 11 degrees and leading decreased a lot, accuracy was up. Then fire-lapped a constriction out of the barrel, and leading is almost nil now out of that gun.... Sometimes you just have to 'work' at it to make it 'right.

Good post Rclark...

"Thumbs", I recommend you check out the sticky at the top of this section entitled "From Ingot to Target" by Glen Fryxell. VERY enlightening... :wink:

I'm rather new to the lead shooting. I recently started casting my own. I started with the Lee .452-200 RF and recently started casting TL .452-200 SWC and .452-255 RF. I was nervous about leading because of all I'd read about the NM Blackhawk .45 Colts all need the throats reamed. I just for the heck of it sized 1 dozen bullets to .451 and another to .452 and took them out to the bench. I shot the .451 rnds first and after the first 2 rnds the group really opened up to about 10" and worse by the end of 12 rnds. I had lead in the barrel so I cleaned it up and shot a couple FMJ rnds, then inspected to find a clean barrel. I then shot the .452 rnds and had 1 small streak of lead after 12 rns. I then went in and loaded up a bunch of twice tumble lubed bullets as they dropped with no sizing. 150 in all, of both 255-RF and 200 SWC and went back to the bench. I just had fun and shot them all and they were all very accurate with the 255s shooting a little high as I expected. When I took the cylinder out to give the gun a good cleaning I was elated to find NO leading whatsoever. I'm casting all my bullets for this gun from now on. I have a good supply of cowws with a couple hundred lbs.of coww ingots already made. Now I'm gonna start experimenting with lead through mt 1911.

thumbs, 21-22 BHN is waaaay too hard (a lot of commercial casters make bullets too hard with marginal lube also too hard. Many of those that buy cast bullets have been mislead and believe that "harder is better" and the commercial casters just give then what they ask for). If you shoot a bullet that hard, and slightly undersize, .430", you're almost guaranteed to get leading (starting where you noticed, at the beginning of the barrel). Bullet size is way more important than BHN when shooting and I've fired 8-9 BHN cast bullets up to around 1,000 fps cleanly, and my wheel weight alloy, 10-12 BHN, has been run up to over 1300 fps in my .357 Mag. I cast bullets leading free for many years before I got a hardness tester and had many, many clean shooting bullets because I learned to fit the bullet to the gun (now, fit is not the only important factor for clean shooting lead bullets, but it's right there on top of the list).

Well here`s my 2cents, If building new loads I check every round (I use all 6 chambers) for 18 rounds, if no signs of leading I check each cyl full until I get the load shot up.

As far as chamber & throat sizes go Doug Guy has the correct tools to get em all the same & clean up the forcing cone.
I had em to ream cyl & clean cones on 5 of my revolvers & so far I`ve got improved accuracy (as far as I can tell , I`m not as good a shot as some)but the bit of leading that was happenin in some throats & cones has ceased.

I can now wipe the powder residue off & go with it as the bores are shiney & I can see steel in the throats, I do run a patch thru just to satisfy my slight OCD .

I cast my own & use Randy Rat`s TAC 1 & TAC X , also use White Label`s Carnauba Red , all 3 are very good lubes & I behoove anyone to try em if lookin for a lube .

Although if ya don`t got any lube sizers powder coating looks attractive & some have it down to a science!!


Now , you`re gonna shoot hard commercial stuff , can I suggest a good micrometer to measure em with so you`ll KNOW the dia. instead of relying on the label. Once ya measure em ya can check em in the throats , they should be interference fit , not falling thru, that`s bad from the get go & probably will lead no matter what.

IF, no , WHEN ya lead ya barrel here`s how to DELEAD it .

Get your favorite solvent out & wet the throats & bore down, let it soak a bit (I use Ed`s Red & give it at least 15min) while the stuf is soakin take an old bore brush & wrap some copper mesh pot scrubber( unwrap it so it`s flat& ya can cut to size)(take a magnet with ya to the store to make sure it`s all copper & not copper coated steel) around it so it fits snug, you`ll be amazed at how fast the lead is removed.

I use a lead away cloth wrapped on a popcicle stik to keep it flat on the front of the cyl & frame ( note : higher end loads & this will vary with alloys will keep the lead blown off the face & frame to a point)

& as far as hardness , I rarely cast handgun boolits over 14 bhn & most are in the 10-12 bhn range, if ya start putting a lot of tin & antimony in the mix ya can almost get to jacketed costs.
Rifles is a different story all together!!

Read all ya can here: CastBoolits.com

Enuff for now , GP100man

Thanks for all the info guys.

Went out and ran 100 rounds through her checking every cylinder for leading. Looked good so I went home to clean it up and really get the story. Well happy to say VERY little lead come out of the barrel. Just almost dust kinda stuff. The cylinders had maybe a touch more but not much. Seems in my case I was shooting to low a charge for the hardness of the bullets.

Only had 20 357's made up so I fired them. Didn't see anything yet. I'll run another 80 rounds through it and let ya know.

Is there a preferred method to cleaning the face of the cylinder or is is best to leave it alone?

thumbs, there`s a lot of debate over cleanin the face of a cyl. . Some claim cleanin the face to show no rings each outing causes more wear (rounds the edges of the throat) & done with some polishers/cleaners I can see this happening.

My take is if ya need to do more than what a bronze brush can do take a lead away cloth & wrap it around a tongue depressor or an popcicle stik to keep it flat .

I clean enuff to keep my firearms from rust/corrosion & reliable to the point I can grab any firearm within reach for SD/HD situations.

I`ll throw this in also ,I do clean my revolvers down to the metal to measure wear once a yr.

GP

I think one of the big problems regarding barrel leading it most, if not all commercial bullets are way too hard. I found out that softer bullets can be shot at magnum speeds and not lead. Came across this strictly by accident. A friend asked me to load up a box of .357 Mag. ammo with the Lyman #358156 to close to full power specs.The problem I had was the bullets were only 8 on the BHN scale. I told him the loads might lead his barrel; but if they did bring it over and I'd "get the lead out". He called me a few days later and asked me to load him up another batch which I did. Told me they were the most accurate loads he'd ever shot and no sign of any lead in the barrel. :shock: I loaded up another box for him and a box for myself and went to the range. I shot all 50 rounds and sure enough the load was very accurate and no leading whatsoever. Bullet were sized .359" and LBT Blue soft version was the lube.
The lead used for the bullets was part of several hundred pounds of wheel weights,a 100 pound sheet of pure lead and what was told to me was cleaned wheel weights. The soft bullets in question was from that batch of "cleaned" weights. My thoughts are they were from the stick on type of weights.
Interesting to think about but IIRC, Elmer Keith used a 16/1 lead/tin alloy and I don't think that could have been too hard a mix. Worked for him in the .357 and .44 magnum as I recall. I haven't done much handgun shooting the last few months, just been too busy but I do have some Lyman #429241 bullets cast up with that soft metal. Methinks I'll load up some Keith level loads and see if they hold up as well as the bullets did in the .357. Gonna do some Linebaugh level loads in a .45 Colt Ruger Bisley in the not very distant future so might as well see how they hold up as well.
Paul B.

I don't cast, boy I don't need something else to get into, but I load and shoot cast and coated cast bullets. I would never buy any from a vendor that doesn't post their hardness window or just ran as hard as they could. I think I figured it out awhile back, some vendors cast very hard just so the bullets don't get dinged up in shipping.