Why not a Ruger pump?

[RedLabel]

Why not a Ruger Pump? Everybody makes a pump shotgun and does well with it. Why not Ruger? Or is the market just plain full? I will have to admit, trading my three 870s would be tough.....but I love Ruger and wouldn't trade my Red Label for a Beretta!

 

[wolfee]

I'd buy one.

 

[Rocdoc]

Don't know, I'd bet you are right, not much of a market with sufficient margin to offer a pump gun? I'm still shooting my cheap Mossberg 20ga pump 80's vintage with great success on birds and clays. Like to upgrade to an O/U, probably a CZ.

 

[BlkHawk73]

They did have one years back at a show but very little "look at this" if I recall correctly. Personally...I'd say that market is more than sufficiently saturated but then again, so was the AR market. The pump shotgun market though just isn't as strong.
having said that though... :wink:

 

[jjas]

There was talk about Ruger offering a semi-auto shotgun several years ago but (obviously) that didn't happen.

I don't see there being enough of a margin for Ruger to offer a pump, but maybe a semi-auto is still doable. Having said that....the semi-auto market is pretty full and Remington made it even more crowded with the introduction of their V3.

I guess time will tell......

 

[Chief 101]

maybe our prez could mention a ban on pump shotguns to kick-start a Ruger Pump...just sayin'...the feds do make great sales team for the firearms industry.

 

[eveled]

I didn't think there was room for another 1911 maker either, but the SR1911 is still selling. I think a high quality pump shotgun would be a winner if done right.

 

[Big Old Boy]

I have not had a shotgun in years, if Ruger made one I would buy it.

 

[GAO LLC]

They don't need to introduce another damn thing until they can produce what they currently have in sufficient quantities to satisfy demand. :x

 

[toysoldier]

That's a very tough market. What kind of pump? Conventional inexpensive, like the Turkish imports? Conventional midlevel, like the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500? Conventional expensive, like the Browning BPS? Full-blown tactical, like Kimber's? Fancy walnut stock, black synthetic, camo? What screw-in choke system? 12 gauge, 20, 28, .410? Maybe you'd like to see a recreation of the Winchester Model 12 (one not made in China)---complete with barrel shield and bayonet.

So when you say "Yeah, I'd like a Ruger pump!" you have to be a bit more specific. Just what sort of pump shotgun do you think Ruger could sell in quantities large enough to justify development costs?

 

[Big Old Boy]

From what I have read Ruger is working on a shotgun, we will have to wait and see what it will be. I am sure that new plant in Nc is not in full use as yet.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

For myself, to buy a new pump, it would have to offer something that's missing in today's market. Short of a reasonably priced ($800 range?) "true" Model 12 clone, built well enough to be worthy of the name, I'm sort of at a loss as to what that might be. So I guess that makes me a "market's saturated" voter.

Rick C

 

[oyeme]

Hi,

For myself, to buy a new pump, it would have to offer something that's missing in today's market. Short of a reasonably priced ($800 range?) "true" Model 12 clone, built well enough to be worthy of the name, I'm sort of at a loss as to what that might be. So I guess that makes me a "market's saturated" voter.

Rick C

Browning came out with a "true" Model 12 clone a few years ago selling in that price range and they dropped making them after a few years due to a lack of sales I assume. If I remember correctly, the parts were even interchangeable with some of the older ones. What happened? Apparently there were not enough potential Model 12 owners, to make keeping one in production a viable venture. If you still want one you can find them listed on the various auction sites for $800+

As for me, the only pump I would like to see reintroduced would be a clone of the Model 31 Remington. IMO it was a far superior pump to all others including the Model 12 & 870 of which I have owned both. Bill

 

[RedLabel]

Myself? I would love to see a M12 type gun but realistically it would need to be an 870 type. Express low level type and for those of us who like a little bling, Wingmaster type quality. Could Ruger pull something like that off?

 

[WAYNO]

I believe the 870 to be the best shotgun ever made, so Ruger would have some very established competition.

But...Folks professed the AR and 1911 market to be saturated, and Ruger seems to be doing quite well. :mrgreen:

WAYNO.

 

[chet15]

Here's what I have in the reference on the old Ruger pump and semi-auto designs.
The gun that was on Ruger's SHOT booth display was pulled before the crowd came in...

Identification: The Ruger Pump and Semi-Automatic Shotguns (actual model numbers unknown) are identified as blued 12 Gauge shotguns with Winchester Model 12 style receiver with dust cover over the ejection port, 26" (or 28"?) barrel, Remington style barrel/magazine cap and fingergroove forearm.

Prototypes:

One of the pump shotgun prototypes made a brief appearance in the Ruger display at the 1995 S.H.O.T. show. It is as described above.

At least two semi-automatic shotguns of the Ruger design were reportedly produced. It is believed that the factory had been experimenting with the semi-auto shotgun at least into 2003.

chet15

 

[Rick Courtright]

Browning came out with a "true" Model 12 clone a few years ago selling in that price range and they dropped making them after a few years due to a lack of sales I assume. If I remember correctly, the parts were even interchangeable with some of the older ones. What happened?

Hi,

Was a "workaday" 12 ga ever produced in that run? The only Browning Model 12s I ever saw were moderately fancy 20 gauges, and at a price considerably above that $800 level (back then.) A buddy saw an unfired one at a recent gun show for just under $1100, and it seems that's about what they were selling for locally at the start. Kinda like the real pretty, but quite spendy, Model 94s Browning's offered since taking over Winchester production, I think they may have started production at the wrong point on the market spectrum.

Regardless of price, Winchester firearms enjoy a kinda strange position in the market as to what's desirable, what's to be avoided like the plague! Look at the overall "post-64" dust ups, the "Y" Model 12 which worked as well as the pre-64 but was shunned because of the cast receiver (Ruger and a couple of others would be out of business if that mentality was market wide!), the controlled feed vs push feed Model 70 arguments, etc. Methinks it's a tough room to play if you own it--even harder to break into for a newbie!

Rick C

 

[chet15]

Well...put a black stock on it and put rails all over it and everybody will be all over it!! :mrgreen:
Chet15
Kidding aside, I was talking with a dealer at the Des Moines show last weekend and mentioned the new Red Label had been discontinued. Then used some of my quite sarcasm by saying they'd have just given it a black stock and attached some rails to it everybody would have wanted one...and he said "That would be cool!".

 

[rugerjunkie]

If im gonna spend upwards of $800 or so on a pump shotgun it'll be another ithaca! Sure there's room for Ruger in the shotgun arena...plenty of us out here that arent 870 fans. But it better come in for less money than remington. If not , buying a couple for a quick investment isnt a bad idea when they are discontinued in a couple years...

 

[STURMRUGERFAN]

I believe the 870 to be the best shotgun ever made, so Ruger would have some very established competition.

But...Folks professed the AR and 1911 market to be saturated, and Ruger seems to be doing quite well. :mrgreen:

WAYNO.

I agree, some things are better off not challenged. I love Rugers but I would still prefer a Remington 870 Wingmaster just like I prefer Colt's for my 1911's and AR-15s

 

[Rick Courtright]

If im gonna spend upwards of $800 or so on a pump shotgun it'll be another ithaca! Sure there's room for Ruger in the shotgun arena...plenty of us out here that arent 870 fans. But it better come in for less money than remington.

Hi,

Methinks that would be a very tall order! In an earlier post I mentioned the $800 or so level because it should get one a brand new Rem 870 Wingmaster--the real one, not the cheapo Express--or a Sandusky Ithaca 37, both quite nice enough guns. Remington's also got a big chunk of the lower priced market sewn up with that 870 Express, while Mossberg's 5xx family have owned a big slice of that pie for decades as well. Then there are plenty of others: Browning's BPS, essentially a Model 37 clone, can be had for prices in the middle, and there's a lot of choice in there for others, too. Even several of those companies who don't build their own market some kind of moderately priced pump import, some of which I understand work fairly well.

Just personal opinion, of course, but with Ruger's history of "hit and run" with new models, combined with the fact I'm not yet convinced they thoroughly understand the concept of "quality control," if I WERE in the market for yet another pump gun, they'd have to work a lot harder than they do to get my attention. And, no, black plastic doesn't do it... sorry, Chet!

Rick C

 

[lar50]

For pump guns I'll stick to my Model 12s, I do have a 20ga Red Label which I always think is a pretty nice shotgun until I pick up my Browning Superposed. I seem to recall someone has once again resurrected the Ithaca M37, or at least I think they have, I believe they're priced at the higher end of the spectrum. I suspect the margins are thin in the market and hitting on something the majority of shotgunners want is going to involve some luck.

 

[rugerjunkie]

Rick,

Good points made but you couldn't give me an 870 express unless I needed a pry bar or a tomato stake for the garden. And I have BPS's sitting next to my Ithaca's. They are both nice but Ithaca wins every time in my book. It would be a tall order for Ruger and depending on what they come up with , they could have a good seller...

 

[Rick Courtright]

Good points made but you couldn't give me an 870 express unless I needed a pry bar or a tomato stake for the garden. And I have BPS's sitting next to my Ithaca's. They are both nice but Ithaca wins every time in my book. It would be a tall order for Ruger and depending on what they come up with , they could have a good seller...

Hi,

I'd always had 870 Wingmasters, a number of them "S" (skeet) and "T" (trap) models, which came with upgraded wood, nice polished and blued finishes, as well as the interior parts being "finished" in whatever the "Vibrahoned" process is/was. All of them have been slick right out of the box, and weren't all that expensive back when they were purchased.

Then last year, my BIL decided he didn't need or want the 870 Express he'd bought then never shot. He all but gave it to me, and I'm glad he didn't want much of anything for it. In the time it took to get it cleaned up, stoned and polished, etc. so it works like an 870 SHOULD, I probably could have made enough money to buy a "real" Wingmaster. After swapping the Home Depot wood for synthetic so I can drop it in a duck pond and not worry, I took it out for the opener of dove season last year. Dropped five birds in the first eight shots, so I guess I didn't hurt it much!

The "good" thing about an 870 Express is that it's pretty cheap to buy, and if you have the patience to put a few 1000 rounds thru it, it will be as smooth as a "real" Wingmaster used to be right out of the box! Tomatoes don't grow well in my neighborhood, so I dunno how good a job it would do as a stake...

Are your 37s "old" ones made in one of the incarnations of the NY plant, or "Sandusky" models? I've got one from about '82 living here, which I think was during one of the "transitions" in NY. It works just fine, but is a little rugged looking compared to a couple from the '50s one of my father's bird hunting buddies had. This one needs to be shot more to slick it up a touch, but all in good time. Pictures I've seen of the Sandusky guns make them look like someone cared enough to make the "old" gun again. Is that actually the case?

Rick C

 

[Cordite]

I'd have to agree with the previous comments about the pump shotgun market being saturated at the lower price points. Big barrier to entry.
The profit margins are very slim at the lower price points so there would have to be substantial volume. The only way a low cost pump shotgun would work for Ruger is if they were willing to pay for the development and production startup expenses as a very large bite out of the profit margin of the rest of their products. That can't go on for very long though. Ruger Marketing would have a substantial task in promoting a pump shotgun as being different and better than the rest of the market.

I know that this is a pump shotgun thread but I would like to see an inertia drive semi auto shotgun like a Benelli but at a Ruger price point. Not as messy as gas driven semi auto shotguns and perhaps easier (lower cost) to manufacture than a gas gun. Have a high line with nice figured wood and a low line with the black composite furniture and you would have a winner. Much less competition and the price point (profit margin) could be higher.

Just my opinion and it's worth what you paid for it.

Cordite

 

[picketpin]

Listening to you guys argue about price point just brings it into focus. MOST of todays shooters, unless they are old farts like me are simply NOT going to spend $800 plus on a "sporting" pump shotgun.

New Browning Model 12s were produced in 28 and 20 gauge in Grade 1 and Grade 5. No 12 gauges to go hunting with. The grade 1s are right at $1200 give or take a little.

The dogs talked me into the Grade 5 28 gauge as a new grouse gun. The guy behind the counter (a friend) said "Hell if you can afford to actually shoot it, try this" A Grade 4 20 gauge Model 12 Winchester made in 1953. Uh, maybe doves. ;-)

I already own 870 Wingmasters going back to the 1960s in 12, 16, 20, 28 and 410. So a NEW Ruger probably wouldn't be on the table for me. Frankly I'm the guy you'd have to woo if you came into the market unless you want the $350 price point.

They don't make what they can't sell, at least not for long. High year for the #1 was 1976 and it was down hill all the way from there till 2015

RWT

 

[mohavesam]

-- Years ago Flloyd Marshall of Ithaca fame, was approached by Ruger reps about acquiring the full rights to the Ithaca 37.
Some engineering folks lament it would have been the first design Ruger could not improve upon... 8)

After a few months (and after all the work of converting the hand-build designs and patterns to CNC methodology) Marshall decided to sell everything to Dlubak, and kept the operations and many employees in Upper Sandusky OH. This was all in 2006 or 07.

Ruger really missed the boat on the model 37 IMHO. Another Ithaca design, the Mag-10 10-gauge shotgun, was purchased by Remington decades ago and they made very minor mods to that gun and sold thousands with almost no advertising aside from the name recognition.

 

[rugerjunkie]

My Ithaca's are all NY models. I really really want to get one of the Ohio made models. I think from what Ive seen and read they are really putting a nice Model 37 together. Its been some years back now but I spoke to one of the gentlemen in the office and they were tossing the idea around of a scaled down reciever for a .410 Model 37! If its ever made...I'll be buying two of em!

 

[Rick Courtright]

they were tossing the idea around of a scaled down reciever for a .410 Model 37! If its ever made...I'll be buying two of em!

Hi,

Grab three if you can and let me know--I'll take the third one! (Don't worry, I'll even pay for it!)

Until then, I'm still thinking their 28 ga Model 37 should be a very nice gun for dove, quail, grouse or whatever other smallish game birds live in your neighborhood. Bought a 28 ga 1100 with an extra barrel many years ago for a girlfriend to use for skeet and doves. First gun I ever got a 15 bird limit of doves with, in less than a box of shells, too. The gun went with her. I miss it!

Rick C