Why Gun Nuts Shoot Better Than The Army

[noquarter]

A thought provoking article on firearms training.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/top-army-marksman-explains-why-gun-nuts-shoot-better-469f8dfd917f?source=latest

Satterlee says he has learned a lot about firearms in the world of competitive shooting. It’s influenced how he shoots—and why he came to recognize flaws in how the military prepares soldiers for war.

He’s the operations sergeant at JBLM’s Special Forces Advanced Urban Combat Course. After years of combat deployments around the world, training soldiers and shooting at civilian weapon ranges around the United States, he thinks it’s time we radically revamp the way we think about firearms training.

He says new approaches could save a lot of lives—soldiers and civilians alike.

 

[Colonialgirl]

Some how, Aiming at a LARGE stationary target does NOT really train you in shooting.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

If only the rules of engagement actually allowed the troops to protect themselves, instead of giving the enemy an advantage.

 

[737tdi]

Some how, Aiming at a LARGE stationary target does NOT really train you in shooting.

It does if you were raised in a large urban area and have never held/seen a firearm. I went through boot camp (as a lot of us did) with guys who were from LA and had never seen the beach and most certainly not a gun. Since I was aviation the most firearms training I received after boot was annual qualifications.

I totally agree that things need to change but getting the military to train all of it's troops as special forces are trained will probably never happen. The main reason, cost. Can you imagine putting the entire 10th Mountain Division though this type of training? Another reason is time, not just clock time but range time. How long would it take to get one company, brigade or battalion through? I am not just full of questions. Maybe do it like they do with other training. Put the competent NCO's through the training and let them train the troops? Kind of like the Navy/USMC sends aviators to Top Gun school and then those attendees return and train the others??

Hopefully they can get a mix of both worlds. No matter what happens the US fighting man will never be able to fight as a terrorist or insurgent, the "civilized" world will not allow it.


Karl

 

[blackhawknj]

No, it's like the old New York City joke.
A violinist hails a cab:
Violinist: "Take me to Carnegie Hall."
Cabbie :" How do you get to Carnegie Hall ?"
Violinist: "Practice, practice, practice."
I recall an article I read years ago by New Jersey native and champion bodybuilder and weighlifter John Grimek. He said as his physique and feats of strength became know, he was challenged to a swimming race. He admiited he really didn't know how to swim, but he figured he could run around the mill yard where he worked, practicing swimming strokes and rely on his strength to get him through. The Big Day came, and within minutes Grimek was hauled from the water, gasping for breath while the swimmer complete the course with no problems. As Grimek noted:
"To get good at something, you have to practice that something."
And in the Army I served in, on a scale of 1 to 10 marksmanship training had a priority of about 79.

 

[Number9]

Well.. it's been a known fact for over 100 years that Southerners are on average the best shots in the country! :mrgreen:

 

[Colonialgirl]

Well.. it's been a known fact for over 100 years that Southerners are on average the best shots in the country! :mrgreen:

You got that RIGHT !!

The Yankees caused one casualty for every 900 rounds they fired;

The Confederates were Better than that, That's why they could fight battles with fewer troops.

 

[Number9]

Well.. it's been a known fact for over 100 years that Southerners are on average the best shots in the country! :mrgreen:

You got that RIGHT !!

The Yankees caused one casualty for every 900 rounds they fired;

The Confederates were Better than that, That's why they could fight battles with fewer troops.

The Ten Costliest Battles of the Civil War
http://www.civilwarhome.com/Battles.html

Of the ten, the Confederate forces was outnumbered in nine of the battles...
look at the number engaged and the outcome. Take note of #3.

 

[Dan in MI]

Hmmmmm.... out of ten battles the record is 4 and 4 and two inconclusive. Not sure that bears out your assumption.


Back to the OP. This info bears out what is often seen even at the LEO level. The LEO's that compete can shoot. The one's that don't, can't. Training, the right kind, is always needed.

 

[Number9]

"Hmmmmm.... out of ten battles the record is 4 and 4 and two inconclusive. Not sure that bears out your assumption."

Now I know why you Yanks can't shoot! Hell.. you can't see! :mrgreen:

 

[mn_doggie]

"Hmmmmm.... out of ten battles the record is 4 and 4 and two inconclusive. Not sure that bears out your assumption."

Now I know why you Yanks can't shoot! Hell.. you can't see! :mrgreen:

Obviously being self proclaimed better shots didn't help them win the war...

 

[Bob Wright]

During my Army training, we fired first on what was know as the KD (Known Distance) range. We fired at bulls eye targets at 100, 200, 300, and 500 yrds with the M1 Rifle. We trained with this until all qualified with the rifle. Next was firing at silhouette targets that popped up at varying ranges, firing from a "foxhole" position. Then we fired a course of assault firing, moving forward while targets popped up in front of you at varying distances. The latter had green targets for friendly and buff targets for enemy troops. We were taught to kill the enemy as far out as possible.

Never enter a building with enemy troops inside. Instead, blow up the building first, then shoot survivors.

They fight differently nowadays.

Bob Wright

 

[6gun]

Well.. it's been a known fact for over 100 years that Southerners are on average the best shots in the country! :mrgreen:

True Sergeant York the hillbilly from Tennessee was a good example, but there was good shots out west also all the Indian and buffalo killers.

 

[cruzerlou]

It's just like at the Sheriff's academy and most Police academies, you get just enough firearms training to make you think you can go out and win a gunfight.
What some unfortunate new cops learn the hard way is that what they learned at the academy is just enough to get you killed .
Lou

 

[Number9]

"Hmmmmm.... out of ten battles the record is 4 and 4 and two inconclusive. Not sure that bears out your assumption."

Now I know why you Yanks can't shoot! Hell.. you can't see! :mrgreen:

Obviously being self proclaimed better shots didn't help them win the war...

I think I found the problem?

With even numbers, The Confederate States would have won the war in half the time!

 

[Paul B]

When I was in the Air Force, during basic traing I shot the M2 carbine. The shots to sight in and 10 for score. I had a nice group forming when the extractor broke. THe instructor gave me another rifle, did what he called a"Mechanical zero" and I was allowed to shoot my last 7 rounds. Needless to say the second gun was nowhere near where I aimed so almost did not qualify. That was in 1960. In 1963 when I was in Korea, I had to qualify with the M2 again. Ten shots with no sighting in shots. :x
Barely qualified again. Sure would have been a mess had the North Koreans decided to start it all over again.
Paul B.

 

[cadillo]

Hmmmmm.... out of ten battles the record is 4 and 4 and two inconclusive. Not sure that bears out your assumption.


Back to the OP. This info bears out what is often seen even at the LEO level. The LEO's that compete can shoot. The one's that don't, can't. Training, the right kind, is always needed.

Overly broad statement. I never competed while an LEO, or since I retired, but give me just a head visible at 60 yards with my P220, or 686, and it's all over. During quarterly quals they would sometimes end the shooting with a stress course, which ended with a bowling pin hung from a rack by a small cable at about sixty yards. We had several guys, who could hit it with frequency using of all things the dreaded Beretta 96 Brigadier DAO.

There's an old saying about not underestimating people, especially those that you do not even know. You might ponder that concept. It might even save your life one day.

 

[Heliman]

I have personally been in contact with some LEO's at the gun club who are clueless about firearms other than their duty weapons. It's kind of disconcerting to know what they don't know. More than a few times I have been shooting a handgun or rifle and those folks will come over to see what I was shooting and acting like it was the first time they have seen these very common firearms, let alone how to operate them. Just my experience.........

Dave

 

[cadillo]

I have personally been in contact with some LEO's at the gun club who are clueless about firearms other than their duty weapons. It's kind of disconcerting to know what they don't know. More than a few times I have been shooting a handgun or rifle and those folks will come over to see what I was shooting and acting like it was the first time they have seen these very common firearms, let alone how to operate them. Just my experience.........

Dave

Nearly every time I get behind the wheel I see a driver or drivers, who are let's say males, so as not to pick on the females of the species, who make me think of the old saying "Giving that guy a set of car keys is like giving a chain saw to a termite." That does not and should not make me or any other thinking person believe that all males are inferior drivers. That however seems to be the logic you apply to LEO's in general when it come to firearms.

Just sayin....

 

[Heliman]

I have personally been in contact with some LEO's at the gun club who are clueless about firearms other than their duty weapons. It's kind of disconcerting to know what they don't know. More than a few times I have been shooting a handgun or rifle and those folks will come over to see what I was shooting and acting like it was the first time they have seen these very common firearms, let alone how to operate them. Just my experience.........

Dave

Nearly every time I get behind the wheel I see a driver or drivers, who are let's say males, so as not to pick on the females of the species, who make me think of the old saying "Giving that guy a set of car keys is like giving a chain saw to a termite." That does not and should not make me or any other thinking person believe that all males are inferior drivers. That however seems to be the logic you apply to LEO's in general when it come to firearms.

Just sayin....

No , not saying that at all. Lot's of LEO's are experts, just saying that some I have contacted don't seem very diversified in their knowledge of firearms in general.

I support our Law Enforcement Officers 100%. Not belittling them, just offering an observation of some locals I have experience with. They are not all masters of their craft. Just....MY.....experience.

 

[Number9]

Well, I hate to break it to ya... some people can't hit the broadside of a barn with a lot of training and practice and never will!!
And I know drivers who I would never ride with, even if they have been driving for many years!
Let's face it.. some are just not cut-out to do certain things right...
take most Yankee's sorry shooting capabilities for instance! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Dan in MI]

Hmmmmm.... out of ten battles the record is 4 and 4 and two inconclusive. Not sure that bears out your assumption.


Back to the OP. This info bears out what is often seen even at the LEO level. The LEO's that compete can shoot. The one's that don't, can't. Training, the right kind, is always needed.

Overly broad statement. I never competed while an LEO, or since I retired, but give me just a head visible at 60 yards with my P220, or 686, and it's all over. During quarterly quals they would sometimes end the shooting with a stress course, which ended with a bowling pin hung from a rack by a small cable at about sixty yards. We had several guys, who could hit it with frequency using of all things the dreaded Beretta 96 Brigadier DAO.

There's an old saying about not underestimating people, especially those that you do not even know. You might ponder that concept. It might even save your life one day.

A close friend was the Range Sgt for the local Sherriff's Dept. I used to go visit a lot (at that time the range was open to non LEO's if you had an in) and at certain times I got to watch officers in a panic trying to shoot well enough to be ready for qualifications coming up within the next couple weeks. I shot with Deputies in competition from the same Dept. Between what I have personally seen and had conversations about, I speak from far more knowledge than you think. Yes, there are some smart LEO's that take their firearms seriously, but they are nowhere near the rule. I also personally know a dozen or more cops (outside of competitors) and easily 1/3 of those HATE guns and don't want to touch it more than required. As I think about this, of my LEO friends I can probably divide them into 1/3's, [non gun guys/ shooters / shooter only for the job, but are decent]

Because of this Jay made it a big deal to create fun and useful training to try and engage the non gun liking deputies. Sadly due to the actions of his predecessor (profiting from the position) the Range Sgt position had to become a rotational job.


I will add this was late 80's early 90's. Maybe things have changed.

 

[blackhawknj]

The Army I served in 1967-1971 was not so much anti-gun as ungun. Rifle and pistol teams had disappeared by the time I enlisted in 1967 and not revived, recreational shooting opportunities for a single EM living in the barracks were non-existent, annual qualification was usually carried out by the old M-1 Pencil. Several MPs have told me THEY never went to the range. Tankers and artillerymen have told me there were no gunnery compettions for them, and those faniliar with Army ways know that commendationas and awards always go to staff pukes and desk jockeys, people like Charlie Askins, Townsend Whelen, etc. would never make it in today's Army-they'd be booted out before they made captain. Firearms enthusiasts are regarded with suspicion and derision, snipers..... I knew no lifers or officers who were gun guys.

 

[powder smoke]

I went to Basic Infantry Training at Ft. Dix NJ I was amazed how many guys knew
absolutely nothing about firearms. I grew up shooting started with BB gun Bow & Arrow
shot guns to rifle. I shot expert my first trip to the range. There were many guys from
city who were down right dangerous in their gun handling the DI were strict never let their
guard down! Some never got proficient and just could not do it. Natural ability is a huge
part of shooting as with most anything.

Seems being brought in the country North or South made a difference starting young is key.
Some of them guys from the city just never really caught on. That is fact. ps

 

[gramps]

I have personally been in contact with some LEO's at the gun club who are clueless about firearms other than their duty weapons. It's kind of disconcerting to know what they don't know. More than a few times I have been shooting a handgun or rifle and those folks will come over to see what I was shooting and acting like it was the first time they have seen these very common firearms, let alone how to operate them. Just my experience.........

Dave

Nearly every time I get behind the wheel I see a driver or drivers, who are let's say males, so as not to pick on the females of the species, who make me think of the old saying "Giving that guy a set of car keys is like giving a chain saw to a termite." That does not and should not make me or any other thinking person believe that all males are inferior drivers. That however seems to be the logic you apply to LEO's in general when it come to firearms.

Just sayin....

No , not saying that at all. Lot's of LEO's are experts, just saying that some I have contacted don't seem very diversified in their knowledge of firearms in general.

I support our Law Enforcement Officers 100%. Not belittling them, just offering an observation of some locals I have experience with. They are not all masters of their craft. Just....MY.....experience.

What is the craft of law enforcement? Shooting is a very small element of what an LEO does. Albeit a very important part if you need it. Many officers retire without drawing their weapon anywhere other than the range.
gramps

 

[Heliman]

I am speaking to ONE aspect of their "craft". Just firearms. And from my observation. AGAIN, I admire and respect the police, just saying SOME of the folks I have come in contact with, know their Glocks, AR's, and riot shotguns, but beyond that not so much.

Let's not take this somewhere else. Geez.......

 

[WAYNO]

Let's not take this somewhere else. Geez.......

I agree. Lots of cops use our range. They get lots of practice yanking on Glock and AR triggers at very close range, at very big targets, but not much else. Occasionally I call them over for a little show and tell. They mostly have no clue of firearms other than what their department issues them.

So it was okay for the OP to share an observation of firearms training within the military, but folks get their underwear in a knot when we share similar observations of police training?

Maybe if some cops had an interest in shooting different guns, in different situations, at longer distances, including recreationally, it could enhance their firearms proficiency on the job.

And yes, I know there are cops around that do have real life experiences with guns other than police-issued guns, but I've not seen that to be the case with the cops that use our range. I don't know if these guys could even clear a captured weapon if it wasn't a Glock or an AR.

WAYNO.

 

[Paul B]

"And yes, I know there are cops around that do have real life experiences with guns other than police-issued guns, but I've not seen that to be the case with the cops that use our range. I don't know if these guys could even clear a captured weapon if it wasn't a Glock or an AR."

I know of at least one FBI agent who tried to clear a Browning High Power. Got the slide back to clear the chamber OK but couldn't get the hammer back down. I told him to just put the magazine back in the gun and lower the hammer. I got the, I'm an FBI agent trained in the used of firearms." horse crap. How dare I question his firearms training. I asked him if he ever heard of a magazine safety? Got a blank look and no verbal answer. It wasn't until another agent told him to put the magazine in and lower the hammer that he finally did it and did I get a dirty look when I smirked him an "I told you so."
I lost a lot of respect for the FBI on that day. Some of the agents there were quite arrogant. At least one was quite stupid IMHO.
Paul B.

 

[737tdi]

I went to Basic Infantry Training at Ft. Dix NJ I was amazed how many guys knew
absolutely nothing about firearms. I grew up shooting started with BB gun Bow & Arrow
shot guns to rifle. I shot expert my first trip to the range. There were many guys from
city who were down right dangerous in their gun handling the DI were strict never let their
guard down! Some never got proficient and just could not do it. Natural ability is a huge
part of shooting as with most anything.

Seems being brought in the country North or South made a difference starting young is key.
Some of them guys from the city just never really caught on. That is fact. ps

If you look back towards the beginning of this post I said pretty much the same thing. There are/were folks who had never held or shot a gun.



Dave and Wayno: There is just a huge difference between firearms proficiency and firearms qualifications. I think a lot of cops could give a damn about guns?? They are working a job, a job which requires firearms but not necessarily the enjoyment of firearms. They are doing a job, not a hobby and it does not require proficiency, it only requires the minimum. Kinda like all of the military. If you are going to be a pencil pusher? limited qualification time. IMO, every police officer should be completely knowledgeable about the weapons at their disposal. I do not believe that is the case. This is wrong. A police officer should know everything there is to know about the weapons that they use and the weapons used against them. Naïve I know but true. I would think it is their own best interest to know these things.

By the way this was a military question/comment. I just through it further off course. Sorry.


Y'all be good.

Karl

 

[sliclee]

Police Officers, or COPS as we lovingly call them in NYC are not trained to be gun men, gunfighters but to be part time lawyer type, part time father, ticket giver and sometimes how to stay alive if and when they have to use a gun.
To them and LEO's in cities traffic cops ticket givers and here in Florida a combination of all due to the nature of geography
and water, used to be a PO had to know how to swim up until a law suit of discrimination no more swimming to be a cop so they just stood there as someone drowned or a citizen rescued them.
Sheriffs, deputy sheriffs just about all I met are shooters, better than good shooters. Cops used to be born here and served here no more, I used to teach shooting and advanced shooting until it became professional police only.
I got my first semi automatic firing rifle at 4 years old. I could fire 10 rounds of rubber bands in a blur of speed and accuracy against Robert who got me the rifle at the PX after boot camp. After that it was a Daisy Red Ryder Carbine with saddle ring and leather from my dad and at 7 a Mossberg semi auto carbine a 18" barrel that was super accurate, fired shorts and longs,I was the scourge of the Squirrel grove, a shot gun when I could handle one, recoil and weight, a semi auto Ruger pistol in .22 I still have with more from my kids who shot bulls eye for state and so on up the ladder.
How does a city kid do that or how does a man get to do that if no one in his family has guns or isnt a cop or doesnt go into the military.