US Firearms

[Hondo44]

On a visit to a friend several years back, we were shooting revolvers at one of my "Tin Man" steel silhouettes, cut from 1/4-inch mild steel. Distance, taken with my Nikon rangefinder, 190 yards. I was shooting my Ruger 03 with the .45 Colt cylinder. Pretty much nailing Tin Man every shot, offhand.

"Let me see what you can do with my Colt," said my friend. He fetched his 1897 Peacemaker .45 with 4-3/4" barrel. I was reluctant to use my smokeless ammo, although I'd loaded it under, or at, SAAMI pressure standards for .45 Colt. The load consisted of cast 255 SWC over 6.7 gr./HP-38 in Federal brass. I deep-seat the bullet to crimp above the front band.

I started with sighter shots at a Tin Man set at 25 yards. A cluster group----tight----although POI registered a hair low and 2.5-inches left. With my friend on the spotting scope, I shifted to the Tin Man at 190 yards. Offhand. I held one Tin Man to the right, with a good bite of the front sight over the narrow notch. First shot----CLINK. And so it went. That ancient Peacemaker hit Tin Man 5x6 shots----one shoulder, 4 torso----at 190 yards!

My friend was stunned, but no more than me. While most of the finish was worn from his 1897 Peacemaker, there was not a buggered screw, and the rubber grips were as perfect as could be for a gun that had lived.

We took the revolver inside, and measured the groove diameter and chamber exit holes. Chamber exits measured an astounding .452", as did the barrel grooves. That, Ladies & Gentlemen, is a Hartford on the Connecticut River six-shooter, from machinery driven by cowhide belts, when .45 Colt bullets are said to have measured .454-inch.
David Bradshaw

Dave,
In a recent magazine article Mike Venturino quoted from a c. 1922 COLT factory manufacturing spec sheet. Contrary to popular belief the bore spec. sheet IIRC, it called for the 45 to have a .452" bore not .454"!

 

[David Bradshaw]

When I mentioned to student of 19th century American firearms the tight exit holes and .452" groove of my friend's 1897 Peacemaker, he said that those firm dimensions are not unique, and that such Colts are true shooters.

Now that makes me want to go back to measure IHMSA Python-wiz Jerry Moran's early Colt big frame double action .44 Special. Six inch barrel, beautiful blue, don't know model. Nor do I remember Moran's load of cast 240 or 250 grain SWC. Moran had a silhouette range in his back yard in Michigan. Once I got acquainted with the revolver and his sight dope, I went to work on his rail full of rams at 200 meters. Nailed 8x10 with that old .44 Special Colt. I never liked the plain double action grip of the Colt as well as the N-frame S&W, but it didn't hurt, as those loads were light, and looped down on the rams like lead rain.

Jerry Moran then took the Colt and showed me how it's really shot. His sight dope worked for me, as we had proven with his Python 6" .357 at a Michigan IHMSA match on a freezing wet day when all the automobile workers were laughing, shooting, and dipping their trigger fingers in hot coffee.

***

On the issue of USFA finish vs quality: I expect the machine work between the polished-blue/case-carburized and the flat-black Rodeo version to be exactly the same, just as the Freedom Arms Premier and Field Grade revolvers differ in finish only, not tolerances.
David Bradshaw

 

[Olsherm]

SSSSHHHHEEEZZZ! How did we get from value to dimensions? I guess I started it with the colt dimensions.HUH? Every single action I have owned so far(Uberti,Pietta,Beretta Uberto,ect) have had bad cylinder mouth/bore sizes.One I had was about right on the cylinder mouth dia but the bore was about.448 ??

 

[Olsherm]

By the way the USFA Rodeo II in satin finish has as good if not better fit and finish than all of the others I have.It is just not case/hardened. olsherm

 

[David Bradshaw]

Olsherm... what Peacemaker clone was that, and do you mean the bore measured .448", or .448" groove diameter?

Also, believe I saw a couple of USFA's in New Hampshire with factory "antique" finish. Looked pretty real. Correct me if I'm wrong. Where would "antique" price against Rodeo" and "Colt" finish?

And didn't USFA offer a copy of the Colt Lightning pump action .44-40? Used to see the real ones, once in a while.
David Bradshaw

 

[gak]

Olsherm... what Peacemaker clone was that, and do you mean the bore measured .448", or .448" groove diameter?

Also, believe I saw a couple of USFA's in New Hampshire with factory "antique" finish. Looked pretty real. Correct me if I'm wrong. Where would "antique" price against Rodeo" and "Colt" finish?

I bought a pair of the "antiqued" guns, new, a few years back when they were roughly competitive with--or better than--the regular, non-optioned "Single Action" (polished blue/CCH). That also meant better than the Colt by at least a few hundred dollars. Then, in an odd marketing move, USFA increased the price to over the SA model, about in-line with the street price of USFA's premium "Pre War" model, or about the same as the standard Colt SAA. All of this means it's variously been from $200-500+ over the Rodeo. Like the Pre War, Rodeo, Double Eagle and other USFA models, it looks like the antique is no longer available.

The only criticsm I'd give the antiqued USFA Gunfighter models--and one I'd correct with a little "polishing" if I still had the guns, was they looked a little "sooty" and, in one case, "more dead than alive." Many old Colts I've seen that seem to be the "model"/ideal for the factory antique jobs--ie, the ones that don't look like they've been left out in the rain in the bottom of the barrel for a century-- seem to have a little more life in them, at least a hint of sheen. But, like I say, fixable with a little extra elbow grease, maybe some Flitz or some such? The Cimarron I had done (actually by Cimarron on this side of the pond as a special request) has a bit more of that life left--more than their "Original Finish" (Uberti's Old West) or USFA's Gunfighter (antiqued) models.
My Cimarron:

 

[jpickar]

I bought a pair of the "antiqued" guns, new, a few years back when they were roughly competitive with--or better than--the regular, non-optioned "Single Action" (polished blue/CCH). That also meant better than the Colt by at least a few hundred dollars. Then, in an odd marketing move, USFA increased the price to over the SA model, about in-line with the street price of USFA's premium "Pre War" model, or about the same as the standard Colt SAA. All of this means it's variously been from $200-500+ over the Rodeo. Like the Pre War, Rodeo, Double Eagle and other USFA models, it looks like the antique is no longer available.

Please educate me what you mean by "Pre War" model?

Thanks, John

 

[gak]

Please educate me what you mean by "Pre War" model?

Thanks, John

The Pre War is/was USFA's premium single action, a notch above the regular "Single Action" (large S, large A) with standard case hardened hammer and, IIRC, their premium "Armory" blue versus their regular "Dome" blue. There may be other Pre War uniquely standard features, I don't recall, but it essentially was a more fully optioned-out SA. The Single Action is the most "apples-to-apples" comparison to Colt's regular SAA offering. However, one can/could order the USFA with CCH hammer, whereas not with Colt--at least as a regular catalog offering.
As saidn while they were produced, street price on the Pre War was about that of the regular Colt SAA.

A few years ago, USFA also introduced a model--don't recall the name--which more literally matched the early 1st Gen Colt spec-for-spec, as a response to those wanting "exact" replication of those Colts. Up to that point, all USFA single actions sported slightly larger (diameter) cylinders than the Colts, by design. The new model was a special offering, not a large-quantity run but a higher priced limited--or probably "built to order" (or just a few on the shelf at a time) model. The larger cylinder models continued to be the predominant variety.

 

[Hondo44]

I believe USFA made two to the original pre war frame and cylinder specs. The 1st was the "Custer Battlefield Revolver" with antique finish and original 7th Cavalry range hand stamped serial numbers and the next was the "Government Inspector Series" with original new finish with Pre war Model features plus both had bordered checkering on hammers, one piece wood grips, 45 Colt only, blackpowder frame (screw cyl pin retention and v notch rear site), 7 1/2" cavalry and 5 1/2" artillery, with all the exact original military inspector stampings and cartouche.

They also made a pre war 5 1/2" Lend Lease 45 ACP but I'm not sure if it had original size specs.

 

[jpickar]

Thank you for the info. I have learned a lot from your posts.

But what I meant by Pre War is what war?

Thanks, John

 

[gak]

I believe the USFA model intro'd in 2009 to "exact" 1st Gen Colt specs--to answer criticisms they didn't have one that was "100%" early 1st gen--was the "Old Armory Original." The ones USFA actually called "Pre Wars" all had the large cylinder, and later (post blackpowder), wider U sight channel, and I believe most had the smokeless retention spring/latch, though I think you could order the BP front screw. The USFA Pre Wars also also had the squared off triggerguard Colt reverted to after 1920 or so (after two decades or so of the "rounded" variety)...So, the combination of all these features suggested not only Pre WWII but a relatively short period. Since the cylinder "blackpowder" bevel was eliminated or diminished on Colts toward end of production prior to WWII in the '30s, if one wants to be persnickety, because the Pre War like all of the USFA single action line, sported the bevel, the USFA Pre Wars most closely emulated 1920 (or so) to 1930 (or so), larger cylinder notwithstanding.

Edit: I think the idea of the USFA Pre War was the selection of a combination of features that represented what many would think the "best" of the 1st Gens. Namely, smokeless era with "improved" sighting (wider U rear, wider front) and the spring latch (but still with the cylinder bevel). And that happened to be Pre WWII as distinguished from the "blackpowder era" guns--with their narrower sights and end screw--made prior to 1900 (or more specfically pre 1896 if you consider the new spring latch feature introduced then).

 

[Hondo44]

Gak,
Excellent run down! Ok so the Old Armory Original was the one. I should never do anything from memory anymore! So the two I mentioned had the larger cylinders?

John, what we've failed to mention is that USFA bases some of their model nomenclature on the real Colts. Colts are roughly categorized by collectors as 1st generation (from 1873 to WW II when discontinued also known as Pre War Colts), 2nd (Post War, re-introduction in 1956 until 1974) and 3rd (Post War New Model, from 1976, when after factroy retooling they were again re-introduced, to current production). I say roughly categorized because each of those categories are further broken down into subgroups to delineate varying collector interest and values. Hope that helps,

 

[jpickar]

Ahhhhhhhhh! Now I get it!

You have given me more info than I could understand and now I have a reference point it makes sense. Thank you for your time. I doubt I will ever buy a Real Colt at least now I know what everyone is talking about.

Thanks, John

 

[gak]

"Pre War" Colt or USFA is sort of like "Pre 64" Winchesters. While all Wins made prior to 64 are technically "Pre 64," because of all these subsets, they're generally thought by most folks to be at least war and post war up to 1964. And those Wins before 1941 usually referred to as "Pre War." Some collectors will argue that point to the hilt, that it doesn't matter - all Wins made prior to 64 are "Pre 64," but IMO that's playing semantics and hardly helps describe things very well for the layperson. If you say "Pre War" (Wins), most everyone knows what you're talking about. "Pre 64" OTOH brings on another question, "Pre War or later?" - though most think in terms of "later."

Further, like the Colts, many Pre War Wins had characteristics unique to the era, I.e., not found war and post war "Pre 64" such as the various curved buttplates, octagonal barrels, etc, except on various commemoratives, one-offs and such...and so the period before the war has been commonly given its own label, at least for conversation sake.

Similarly, all Colts made (and clones representing) before WWII could technically be considered Pre War, but to differentiate the basic types, as another poster stated, that period from SAA inception (ca 1873) to WWII in 1941 is informally broken into "blackpowder" (frame) up to 1896 and "smokeless" frame 1896-on charcterized by the new spring latch (Though the guns weren't smokeless certified 'til 1900) and ultimately larger/wider sights. And that latter period has been generalized to "Pre War," but most especially 1900 on to 1941--the smokeless era guns. I'm sure I'm missing many fine points here, hammer variations, that rounded triggerguard period in the early 1900s, etc.

Second Gen Colt SAAs, or 1956-1975, are essentially (again, fine points aside) carry over late Pre War--just prior to WWII--in that none except special editions have the "blackpowder" bevel that was seen on guns from 1873 to the 1930s or so.

 

[CraigC]

As gak posted, 1st generation Colt's are generally separated by the blackpowder era guns, up to serial number 192,000 in 1900. Some references indicate as early as 175,000. The "Pre-war" guns are those made from that point up to WWII when production ceased. So the USFA Pre-war model is a replica of post 1900, pre-WWII Colt SAA's. They have the authentic carbona blue finish ("armory blue") and the hammers are case colored. Carbona bluing is a labor intensive process and few offer it today. It has an appeal all its own. Colt has been doing a hot salt blue since WWII. USFA's standard single action is comparable to a 2nd or 3rd generation Colt. As for pricing, the Pre-war model is comparable to a standard Colt at around $1200. The last their standard single action was available from Davidson's, they were around $900.

This is what a Pre-war looks like (actually a Turnbull USFA, engraving not standard):

USFA's hot salt bluing (dome blue) looks like this:

 

[gak]

Good sum up Craig (and beautiful guns!). Another differentiation collectors and afficianados make with Colts is less visible but critical, especially if actually firing the weapons...That is, there were significant metallurgy improvements over the years. Early Colt SAAs (and of course their progenitors) were iron. Someone else more expert can chime in on the exact timeframe of changeover to steel. IIRC improvements were made throughout the blackpowder period to better metals...but, again, as a broad statement the Pre War or 1900-on were considered the more-modern steels - capable of safely/consistently digesting the smokeless cartridge. I believe this may have actually occurred in the 1890s--at least to a degree--but again, the "official" certification for smokeless was ca 1900.

Other than no proprietary "Colt" marking of course, the one aspect the USFA "Old Armory Original"--and other clones purporting to be "exact" to early SAA "blackpowder" era--that is not to original spec is that early iron construction. All modern-era guns use the stronger modern steels.

 

[Olsherm]

So I have a nickle finish/blue screws Colt made in the early nineties that I could technically call a "pre war model" hence pre Irac/Afganistan war.HE HE
I am glad I posted about the USFA.It really stirred up some interest.Interesting no one asked about the 12/22 in the pics posted.I have had two of those 12/22,s(only have 4 3/4 inch model now).I think they are a very intricate piece of work but way too heavy for all intended purposes. I like mine but I cannot shoot any better than I can shoot my Ruger SS,s

 

[David Bradshaw]

My friend Bill Mading in Austin, Texas has done a bit of restorative welding to put back an old gun here and there. Mading is not a gunsmith, please don't flood him with calls. He happens to be a supreme master TIG welder. What I am driving at is this: some of the old guns, the Smith & Wesson/ Colt/ Steinway/Singer-grade 19th Century machine tooling involved metallurgy primitive by today's standards. This "crude" metal resists the touch of even the finest welder.

Beholding those old guns should bring a modern man to his knees.
David Bradshaw

 

[CraigC]

Good sum up Craig (and beautiful guns!).

Thanks Gregg! On strength, it is worthy of note that, with USFA's blessing, Brian Pearce has successfully rechambered standard USFA .44Spl's to .44Mag. Aside from length, they function perfectly with full-pressure loads.


I like the 12/22 and it is a bit heavy but only 2oz more than a comparable .38Spl, which is 3oz heavier than the .44Spl pictured above. My issue is that I can reload the Single Six in seconds. Because I have to deliberately insert each cartridge into the 12/22's chambers, it takes much longer. I still shoot the 50yr old Ruger more.

 

[Hondo44]

I thought the big advantage of the 12/22 was loading two at a time. Bill Hamm loads two at a time in the single ten.

My old single sixes are lighter, smaller and handier. I love the USFA SAs but I'll also stick with my Ruger OMs for 22s.

 

[CraigC]

Loading two at a time sounded good in theory but in practice, not so much.

 

[Hondo44]

Loading two at a time sounded good in theory but in practice, not so much.

Exactly!

 

[gak]

Still, 12 out of something that doesn't look like a peashooter (no flames, I love SS's ) is pretty nice. I used to like the old full size Great Western .22s "just because" and they were only six-shooters!

 

[Hondo44]

I'll admit I have two 1st gen Colts converted to .22 decades ago that I shoot...they sure hold steady.

 

[gak]

A friend has a 1st Gen Colt with Christy .22 barrel and cylinder - 7.5" barrel - now that's a tank!!

 

[Hondo44]

A friend has a 1st Gen Colt with Christy .22 barrel and cylinder - 7.5" barrel - now that's a tank!!

that's a tank!

One of mine was a Christie that is now all Colt again in 38 Colt. The other is all Colt with sleeved cylinder and relined original 4 3/4" barrel. It lettered as a 32-20 originally, I wish it still was.

 

[Olsherm]

I had a 5 1/2 in USFA 12/22 that I could load two at the same time but the one I have now just doesn't quite work that way.

 

[peyton]

I think US Firearms is not ran well. They advertised revolvers that either never hit the market or only sold a few of. I have a 32-20 USFA that I sent in to get a 327 magnum cylinder installed. It went great, then they shipped it back and did not insure it or require signature. The FEDEX guy left it on my FFL's front porch when he did not get an answer at the front door!! I about had a dang heart attack!! I just knew some gang banger got my gun and was cussing because he could not find ammo for it!!

 

[Hondo44]

peyton,
How was that ever resolved?

 

[peyton]

I am sorry for leaving ya'll in suspense. When my FFL got home several hours later after mr FEDEX pulled off this "OOPS" the box was there, laying against the front door. He called USFA and blessed them out for being so cheap, after all I paid for the return shipping and had included enough for FEDEX return, with insurance and signature required.
I call seperately and spoke with the shipping manager asking who would go to jail if the revolver they shipped had been stolen and used in a murder. His reply was "That is the way we always send them to the stores" I told him in response that idea was not practical because FFL's do not always have a store!!