Ten round Mini-14 mags? Nine rounds is more like it.

[parabellum]

I bought a factory 10 round magazine for the Mini. I loaded 10 rounds in it and locked it into a 581 series rifle from 2008. I did so with much effort. It seemed odd to me how hard it was to lock the mag into place, so before chambering a round, I removed the mag to take a look.
The shoulder of the top cartridge case was flattened! It had been crushed down by the underside of the bolt.I thought maybe the spring was binding or something so I disassembled the mag and put it back together. Same result. If I load 9 rounds, no problem.
I tried the mag in my new 5820 Patrol Rifle. Same result with 10 rounds in it.

I have two vintage 10 round factory mags for the Mini. I had never before loaded rounds into them even though I've owned them more than a decade, mainly because I paid $150 for the pair of them.
But, I loaded 10 rounds in each, and once again, the topmost cartridge case gets it's shoulder flattened. WTH?

It seems to me that the only way these mags can be called 10 rounders is if they are locked into the rifle with the bolt locked back, and then a round is chambered. Otherwise, the topmost round is damaged.

Someone please tell me what I'm missing. Two rifles, three mags. Same result each time.

 

[Silent Sam]

What's the point of inserting a magazine on a closed bolt?

 

[parabellum]

What's the point of inserting a magazine on a closed bolt?

To keep a rifle loaded but in a safe condition.

??

 

[dfletcher]

From what I've read being tight or losing a round is not unusual with the Mini when the bolt is forward. You live in CA or a state that limits capacity?

 

[parabellum]

From what I've read being tight or losing a round is not unusual with the Mini when the bolt is forward. You live in CA or a state that limits capacity?

I live in the South. I have about twenty 20 round mags, and 30 rounders as well. Some of them are pristine, boxed vintage mags, but about half of them have been loaded to capacity many times. I've never had a flattened cartridge case shoulder with any of them. This is something specific to the 10 round Mini magazine, it seems.

The reason I'm playing around with the 10 round mags is because a Mini with a 10 round magazine will easily fit inside a boot-style rifle carrier. I'm experimenting with different types of carry options for the rifle.

 

[Silent Sam]

I bet it has to do with 10 round limit laws. Call Ruger.

 

[parabellum]

I bet it has to do with 10 round limit laws. Call Ruger.

By that, you mean the magazine is designed so it will just barely fit the tenth round?

That makes sense.

 

[dfletcher]

I bet it has to do with 10 round limit laws. Call Ruger.

By that, you mean the magazine is designed so it will just barely fit the tenth round?

That makes sense.

I'm in CA, that could be the answer. If you visit a CA based gun forum (don't - you'll just get mad and a headache :( ) you'll see a fair number of "my 10 round mag holds 11 rounds - oh, SH*T!!!" because out here if the 11th round can be crammed in it can mean the difference between OK and a felony.

Perhaps clipping just a touch off the legs of the follower will give enough room?

 

[gfw1985]

You got my curiosity up, so I just checked mine. A 582 series, purchased about a month ago, and I do not have this issue. Tried both Ruger 10 round mags that I bought.

 

[Pal Val]

To me, if it's not clearly stated ""10+1". it implies that the magazine is meant to be inserted with an open bolt. Blame the tight magazine on capacity limitations imposed by ill-intended laws, not on the manufacturer.

 

[parabellum]

To me, if it's not clearly stated ""10+1". it implies that the magazine is meant to be inserted with an open bolt.

You may be inferring that is the case, but I have no idea how you've arrived at this conclusion. I don't even know where you're getting this "10+1" stuff. Since when do manufacturers advertise magazines in that manner?
Further more, as I stated earlier in this thread, and as many members can verify, I routinely load 20 rounds in to 20 round Mini mags, and 30 rounds into 30 round Mini mags and have done so for years, and never experienced a flattened cartridge case shoulder and there is no requirement to seat these magazines with an open bolt. So, again, I don't know how you've arrived at your conclusion.

Blame the tight magazine on capacity limitations imposed by ill-intended laws, not on the manufacturer.

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm looking for answers. I'm certainly not looking for excuses from anyone who feels put-off by my question. I own five Mini-14s and I've been shooting these rifles for more than 30 years. None of this is intended to be criticism towards Ruger.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

A "ten-round magazine" should hold ten rounds comfortably and not in any way contribute to damage to gun or ammo. Something's surely not right, there.

Have you asked Ruger about this?

Glad you posted this because I've been contemplating purchase of a couple ten-rounders.

 

[Pal Val]

What's the point of inserting a magazine on a closed bolt?

To keep a rifle loaded but in a safe condition.

??

If you consider a rifle with a locked and loaded magazine to be in a "safe condition", and you intend to carry the gun like that in a boot carrier, I will not argue with you. You already said plenty.

 

[parabellum]

If you consider a rifle with a locked and loaded magazine to be in a "safe condition", and you intend to carry the gun like that in a boot carrier, I will not argue with you. You already said plenty.

Are you saying you feel a Mini-14 with a loaded magazine locked in place, and with an empty chamber, is somehow unsafe?

Is there some assumption on your part that I'm a hunter, and that the only time I'll load my rifle is when I'm taking it into the field, and with a round in the chamber?

I keep loaded rifles for one purpose only, and that is to defend me and mine. I've kept rifles that way for years, and so far, I haven't shot anything I didn't intend to shoot. I also happen to know quite a few other fellow shooters who keep rifles in such a condition, and they themselves have managed to avoid tragedy as well. Maybe that's because the chamber isn't loaded. Whadda ya think?

And by the way, I said I was playing around with different methods of carry, that's all. Perhaps you feel you read a couple of posts from me and think you understand from that just how I handle my firearms, but you'd be mistaken.

 

[Turbojet]

parabellum, the owner's manuel says to lock the bolt open, then put the mag in. Yes you will damage the top cartridge loading the mag with the bolt closed. If you can put 9 in the mag, with the bolt closed for this type of carry without damaging the top cartridge, then that's what you'll have to do. I agree with you that this is safe. I carry my Model 70 bolt action on my ATV during deer season this way, going to and from my stand. It is in a gun boot on my ATV. An empty gun is useless. The Mini is not a 10 + 1, meaning 10 in the magazine + 1 in the chamber. My Model 70 (30-06) is a 5 + 1, meaning it holds 5 in the magazine + 1 in the chamber = 6 total. I keep the bolt closed over the 5 in the magazine and nothing in the chamber.

 

[parabellum]

Thanks for your reply, but let me clarify something- I don't load magazines to full capacity except on the range. I routinely load all magazines down by two rounds. In my home defense Mini, I keep 18 cartridges loaded into a 20 round magazine. This is a life-long habit of mine, which came about over concerns of spring tension in magazines which are left loaded for extended periods of time. I know many will say this is unnecessary, but I am comfortable with my technique. Should I ever decide to carry a Mini (and we're talking about carrying it in a vehicle) with a 10 round magazine locked in place, the mag would hold 9 rounds only.
The original question in this thread came about simply because in my 20 and 30 round Mini magazines there is no requirement to download the mags by a round to prevent crushing cartridge cases. This seems to be a problem with the 10 rounders only.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Basic1911's are sold with "seven-round" magazines, and you can safely insert such a fully-loaded mag into a closed-bolt pistol with no damage to the top round.

My Glock Model 26 is sold with a "ten-round" magazine which can be inserted, fully-loaded, into a closed-bolt pistol with no problem. The same scenario holds true for the Model 19 and Model 17 with their rated-capacity magazines accepted into closed-bolt pistols without problems.

My Hi-Power is sold with a "thirteen-round" magazine, and (surprised not) it can be inserted fully loaded into a closed-bolt pistol without hassle.

Methinks Ruger may have missed the boat here.

JMHO of course.

 

[parabellum]

One clue about the 10 round Mini magazine might be found in *this thread*, in which the OP is using a 10 round mag and says :

At first the magazines were not seating easily. Then they were. Don't know if I got the hang of it or if the gun was maybe breaking in a little bit. By the end of the shoot I was inserting and firing magazines rapidly and easily.

Given that Mini magazines must first be locked into the rifle at their forward aspect and then cammed into place, it would be easy to interpret the OP's remarks as indicating difficulty becoming accustomed to this method of insertion. However, I suspect that if I start using this 10 round mag on the range, it may very well loosen up enough to halt this behavior. This is reinforced by gfw1985's remark in this thread that he is not experiencing the behavior I've described.

 

[gfw1985]

From what I've read being tight or losing a round is not unusual with the Mini when the bolt is forward. You live in CA or a state that limits capacity?

I live in the South. I have about twenty 20 round mags, and 30 rounders as well. Some of them are pristine, boxed vintage mags, but about half of them have been loaded to capacity many times. I've never had a flattened cartridge case shoulder with any of them. This is something specific to the 10 round Mini magazine, it seems.

The reason I'm playing around with the 10 round mags is because a Mini with a 10 round magazine will easily fit inside a boot-style rifle carrier. I'm experimenting with different types of carry options for the rifle.

I still can't explain why you have this problem. Both of my new 10 round clips will hold 10 rds. and still engage in rifle without damage. There is not enough room for 11, but hold 10 and still able to push down cartridge about half the width of another shell. I routinely carry 10 round clips full, but not in rifle as that is illegal in my state,(considered a loaded weapon). Hope you do contact Ruger and see what their answer is on these clips. If a standard gun operational issue, can't understand why a 20 round clip works and not the 10. I totally believe you, just can't understand why my rifle would be different, especially with you having the same problem in two diff rifles.
Edit: Just seen your last post.

 

[parabellum]

Yeah, it does seem perhaps that the magazine just need to have the spring loosened up a bit by running rounds through it. A spring with too high tension could cause this behavior. If the spring is pushing up so hard that the rounds do not depress in the magazine when the topmost round of a fully loaded mag contacts the underside of the bolt, then either the cartridge case yields a bit or the magazine wouldn't lock into place. The mechanical advantage of the camming action used when Mini mags are locked in place would make it easy to deform cartridge brass.

We shall see

 

[gwnorth]

My two 10 rounders behave this way in my 581 series ranch and 582 series tactical. And no, use has not changed it. Posts over at perfectunion.com indicate the 5 round mags are the same way. The explanation I've always gotten is that these mags must strictly adhere to state's with capacity limitations if Ruger wishes to keep selling mini's in such states. Obviously the 20 round mags never need meet such restrictive requirements.

My understanding is that in states with restrictions manufacturers must make their mags to ensure they cannot ever hold more than the maximum allowed number of rounds.

 

[parabellum]

Well, that clears things up nicely. :D

Thanks

 

[Turbojet]

My 5 round mag is that way also. I have to lock the bolt back to insert the mag or it will damage the top cartridge.

 

[mrmike7189]

i have 3 10 round ruger mags, in a 581 series mini.( never had a problem like this.)
Interesting.....maybe there is a hickup in the magazine or the manner in which they are inserted into the gun, or the rifle was disassembled and the bolt was put back together wrong? who knows? :?:

 

[Pal Val]

I said I wasn''t going to argue. Point of clarification - A long gun with a loaded magazine inserted is considered loaded in most states. If it's legal in your state, more power to you. It's not in mine.

 

[parabellum]

Point of clarification - A long gun with a loaded magazine inserted is considered loaded in most states. If it's legal in your state, more power to you. It's not in mine.

This has nothing to do with the point at hand. Zero. Nada.

If you bothered to actually read this thread, you'd see it begins with me describing something of a mechanical nature; load magazine to capacity, insert magazine into rifle with difficulty, discover compromised cartridge case.

Just as with your previous comments, I cannot for the life of me understand how you've arrived at your conclusions. It's as if you're having your own separate discussion in your head about this.

And just for the record (and once again noting that it has absolutely nothing to do with my question in this thread)- in my state, I can carry a loaded rifle or pistol in my vehicle if I please. I tell you this because this question seems to have been troubling you, so now you can put your mind at ease.

 

[Rick Courtright]

If you consider a rifle with a locked and loaded magazine to be in a "safe condition", and you intend to carry the gun like that in a boot carrier, I will not argue with you. You already said plenty.

Hi, Val

Not standing up for any one position, but I find it interesting out here in CA that carrying a gun in a vehicle w/ (a) round(s) in the magazine, but on an empty chamber, is considered a Penal Code violation: the PC defines that firearm as "loaded." But DFG (per the Fish & Game Code) considers the firearm to be "unloaded" in the vehicle as long as there's no live round in the CHAMBER--you CAN have the mag loaded. There's some jurisdictional issue involved, too: if you're on pavement, PC applies, but get off on a dirt road, and F&GC becomes operative. Or so the DFG Lt. giving the seminar said... Sheesh!

As to Parabellum's quandary, I don't know from personal experience, but I think I'm going to the range Friday w/ my brother in law, and I'll try to remember to ask him if he's run into this w/ his Mini (about two years old.)

Rick C

 

[Pal Val]

Thanks, Rick! I won't discuss my point anymore in deference to Parabellum's indication that he wishes to discuss only the mechanics of the thing. I read again the Ruger manual for the Mini-14 and found it ambiguous on the practice of snapping in a loaded magazine with the bolt closed. So, i'll leave it to personal experience.

Personally, the Mini-14 being a close follower of the old Garand design, I would lean towards loading a magazine only with the bolt open. The M-1 had to be loaded like that, and I was instructed on the M-14 to load with an open bolt, although I must admit to having locked and loaded more han one magazine into an M-14 with the bolt closed with no big problem. I trained with the M-14, and later was a small-arms instructor on it, if that will count for anything. I remember loading 18 rounds in the 20-round magazine simply because topping it off invited jams. Remember tapping the magazine on your helmet to make sure the bullets were aligned right? Could that be also possibly true of the Mini-14?

BTW, Pennsylvania doesn't allow hunting with semi-auto rifles. Allso, a loaded magazine inserted, even if the chamber is empty, makes the gun "loaded", and in violation of Commonwealth law if carrying in a vehicle. I haven't researched federal law on the matter, but it makes little difference to me. I'm not taking a case to court anytime soon. (With my apologies to Parabellum for straying from the subject again.)

 

[parabellum]

:roll:

Thanks for your consistency. You've missed the point of my thread and posted non sequitur repsonses all the way through it. Consistently

You finished now? Or is there something else unrelated to my question that you want to put in here?

 

[Silent Sam]

Actually the manual says you can insert a magazine on an open or closed bolt. It does not specifically address 10 rnd mags, nor would I expect it to. Ruger has the answer specific to ten rounders.