QUESTION - about shipping gun parts through the USPS
- Thread starter RME
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it's never totally clear but
for sure any long gun or part of a long gun can be shipped usps
I'd also ship any handgun part including the SN'd receiver. No jury would ever consider a receiver a firearm despite what ATF says. That is for documentation only IMO
IMO if the gun can't fire it's not a gun. The only exception might be a complete gun missing just a firing pin or hammer. I would not ship that
for sure any long gun or part of a long gun can be shipped usps
I'd also ship any handgun part including the SN'd receiver. No jury would ever consider a receiver a firearm despite what ATF says. That is for documentation only IMO
IMO if the gun can't fire it's not a gun. The only exception might be a complete gun missing just a firing pin or hammer. I would not ship that
22/45 Fan
Hunter
The law says the serial numbered part is the "firearm" and that's what the USPS goes by. Ship a bare receiver if you want to but don't be surprised if by some chance it gets inspected the Postal cops and/or ATF will want to have a talk with you.
Even bare AR lowers with absolutely nothing attached are always sent via an FFL if you mail-order one.
Even bare AR lowers with absolutely nothing attached are always sent via an FFL if you mail-order one.
I'd like to see that in writing as I've looked. Granted a serialized receiver would have go to an FFl but postal rules are different than ATF. There is nothing in the ATF reg that forbid shipping handguns via mail. Only a dealer can ship a handgun gun usps by their rule, not ATF. Below is USPS's definition of a firearm & handgun. IMO a receiver is neither
http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_008.htm
paste from the above USPS link
43 Firearms
431 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.
431.2 Handgun
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short–barreled shotguns and short–barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand.
Short–Barreled Rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches long is defined as a short–barreled rifle. This includes any weapon made from a rifle (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Short–Barreled Shotgun. A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches long is defined as a short–barreled shotgun. This includes any weapon made from a shotgun (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
In my opinion since a serialized handgun frame does not fit the above definition
Any long gun receiver or functioning gun can be shipped usps by a non ffl
http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_008.htm
paste from the above USPS link
43 Firearms
431 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.
431.2 Handgun
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short–barreled shotguns and short–barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand.
Short–Barreled Rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches long is defined as a short–barreled rifle. This includes any weapon made from a rifle (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
Short–Barreled Shotgun. A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches long is defined as a short–barreled shotgun. This includes any weapon made from a shotgun (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
In my opinion since a serialized handgun frame does not fit the above definition
Any long gun receiver or functioning gun can be shipped usps by a non ffl
NewportNewsMike
Single-Sixer
golferboy426 said:
I am not so sure about that part. This below paragraph is from the ATF FAQ - the underlining is mine. Following the copied section is a reference to the U.S. Code where it comes from.
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]
Don't matter what the shippers rules are it's a Felony to ship a reciever, accross state lines thats not going to a FFL or manufactor of the gun, the reciever is the gun, get caught go to jail and loose all your gun rights for your trouble. :mrgreen:
6gun said:
True but I did not think that was the question. I think the question the OP asked about was shipping parts via USPS. A completely disassembled handgun could not ship USPS by a non dealer IMO but any part or group of parts including the receiver can be shipped by a non dealer provided that group of parts can not be assembled to fire.
If the serialized or even non serialized (old gun that had no SN) receiver must go to an FFL
You actually answered your own question but I don't think you realized it.
Reread this: A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.
431.2 Handgun
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short–barreled shotguns and short–barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand.
Note the word DESIGNED. A handgun frame, with no parts at all attached is still DESIGNED to expel a projectile. It doesn't matter if it can fire or not at the moment you want to ship it.
You really have to look at the whole picture when dealing with the ATF. One thing that many don't know: As an FFL, I cannot sell or transfer a stripped AR lower to a person under 21 years old, although I can sell a complete AR or a lower that has the rifle butt stock attached to an 18 year old. That is because a stripped lower is neither a handgun nor a long gun because nothing has been attached yet and as such, it is classified as an "OTHER" and as such cannot be sold to anyone under 21.
So in the big picture, even though a stripped handgun frame cannot do anything, it has been DESIGNED as a handgun so only an FFL can ship it via USPS.
Reread this: A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.
431.2 Handgun
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short–barreled shotguns and short–barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand.
Note the word DESIGNED. A handgun frame, with no parts at all attached is still DESIGNED to expel a projectile. It doesn't matter if it can fire or not at the moment you want to ship it.
You really have to look at the whole picture when dealing with the ATF. One thing that many don't know: As an FFL, I cannot sell or transfer a stripped AR lower to a person under 21 years old, although I can sell a complete AR or a lower that has the rifle butt stock attached to an 18 year old. That is because a stripped lower is neither a handgun nor a long gun because nothing has been attached yet and as such, it is classified as an "OTHER" and as such cannot be sold to anyone under 21.
So in the big picture, even though a stripped handgun frame cannot do anything, it has been DESIGNED as a handgun so only an FFL can ship it via USPS.
Yes
From USPS:
Firearms – Only licensed manufacturers and dealers can mail or receive handguns.
c. Handgun (including pistols and revolvers) means any firearm that has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand and subject to 12.1.1a, or a combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled.
d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers, or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
To the OP,
As a non-FFL you can ship every part of a handgun to someone else, in the same package, via USPS EXCEPT the part that has the serial number on it. And it doesn't have to be the frame, per se. There is a handgun manufacturer (who it is escapes me right now) that the firing mechanism(that fits inside the frame and is removeable) is the part that is serialized and as such that is the part that would be considered the "firearm" and could not be shipped USPS by a non-FFL.
As a non-FFL you can ship every part of a handgun to someone else, in the same package, via USPS EXCEPT the part that has the serial number on it. And it doesn't have to be the frame, per se. There is a handgun manufacturer (who it is escapes me right now) that the firing mechanism(that fits inside the frame and is removeable) is the part that is serialized and as such that is the part that would be considered the "firearm" and could not be shipped USPS by a non-FFL.
NewportNewsMike said:
As my first post stated it's not always clear. The ATF doesn't set the shipping law that comes from US code which USPS builds on and interprets. The USPS link does not define a firearm as a receiver.
I'm not even sure the ATF does, they just define the serialized of non serialized receiver/frame as the regulated portion of the firearm.
I would. without a doubt, if I did not have an FFL ship a serialized frame USPS, shipping to an FFL if it was out of State
Ronin
I respectfully disagree. A frame can not under any circumstances expel a projectile
I respectfully disagree. A frame can not under any circumstances expel a projectile
s4s4u said:
part did is not in the link I provided . Where did you get that? Link??? please. Clearly it conflicts with their definition link
NewportNewsMike
Single-Sixer
As has been said - it is not always clear what piece of the "firearm" or "handgun" is the regulated part. Here are some items that add to the confusion:
- On Ruger Mk 1 / Mk2 / Mk3 rimfire pistols, the serial-numbered / regulated part is the "upper" assembly, not the "lower" grip frame portion like an AR-style would be.
- On Glocks, three different pieces - the grip frame, the barrel, and the slide - are all serialed-numbered. But it is the grip frame number that is considered the "firearm" serial number, and thus the regulated piece.
- Sig has a series of polymer-framed pistols were the serial-numbered / regulated part is a sub-assembly that contains the fire control group / trigger assembly. This means with a single firearm (single serial number) you can have different slide lengths, calibers, or grips (full-sized or compact). Any combination you wish to assemble, all sharing the same serial number, and hence one gun.
For those in this thread still hanging on to the notion that a non-FFL can ship a "regulated" part (i.e the part of the assembly considered the "firearm") via the US Postal Service to another non-FFL, let us know how that works out for you. Also, let us know what kind of fresh fruit you like so we can send you some. All the folks that I know that have spent some time behind bars say that good, fresh fruit is one of the big things they miss.
- On Ruger Mk 1 / Mk2 / Mk3 rimfire pistols, the serial-numbered / regulated part is the "upper" assembly, not the "lower" grip frame portion like an AR-style would be.
- On Glocks, three different pieces - the grip frame, the barrel, and the slide - are all serialed-numbered. But it is the grip frame number that is considered the "firearm" serial number, and thus the regulated piece.
- Sig has a series of polymer-framed pistols were the serial-numbered / regulated part is a sub-assembly that contains the fire control group / trigger assembly. This means with a single firearm (single serial number) you can have different slide lengths, calibers, or grips (full-sized or compact). Any combination you wish to assemble, all sharing the same serial number, and hence one gun.
For those in this thread still hanging on to the notion that a non-FFL can ship a "regulated" part (i.e the part of the assembly considered the "firearm") via the US Postal Service to another non-FFL, let us know how that works out for you. Also, let us know what kind of fresh fruit you like so we can send you some. All the folks that I know that have spent some time behind bars say that good, fresh fruit is one of the big things they miss.
Interesting . The link I found is not as specific as the one you show. I'd still do it and use "my"ink as a defense in the unlikely case it was needed. I would of course ship to the FFL when required. That was never in dispute, just the shipping method.
golferboy426 said:
It doesn't matter if the frame can expel a projectile or not, it was DESIGNED to do that (with all the other parts attached). A stripped AR lower cannot expel a projectile but it is considered the "firearm" by the ATF, not the upper receiver. The frame of a 1911 cannot fire a projectile by itself but it is the serialized portion and it is considered the firearm, the frame (not the grip frame) of a Ruger Blackhawk cannot fire a projectile but it is the serialized portion and it is considered the firearm. The part of any firearm that is serialized is the part that the ATF considers to be the firearm. As I said above, there is one manufacturer that the frame is not serialized, the internal module is and that is what is considered to be the firearm.
All that explained, you can do whatever you want to do, it is you that would suffer the consequences not me.
all true . It doesn't effect me as I can ship handguns usps. However the 2 conflicting links noted I found interesting. ATF rules are clear as to what is regulated ie the frame/receiver. However the USPS is clearly not as clear. Just stating my opinion. If the time came where I did not have an FFl I'd ship a stripped or partial frame based on the link I showed. To each his own.
To Ron
By your logic a barrel is designed to fire a projectile too.
Interesting discussion... I'd still take the risk and ship the frame to the FFL via USPS
To Ron
By your logic a barrel is designed to fire a projectile too.
Interesting discussion... I'd still take the risk and ship the frame to the FFL via USPS
I'm not a lawyer but I do have an FFL. The ATF doesn't care how you ship. The rules of shipment that specify only dealers can ship a handgun USPS are driven by the USPS not the ATF. Regardless, the ATF clearly would arrest one for shipping a frame across State line to a non FFL but I'm sure I would not be arrested for shipping a frame to an out of State FFL via USPS.
It's late here in CT . I'm willing to bet a non FFL has never been arrested for using USPS to ship a handgun to an FFL and let alone especially a stripped receiver.
The only potential violation would be the shipping method
It's late here in CT . I'm willing to bet a non FFL has never been arrested for using USPS to ship a handgun to an FFL and let alone especially a stripped receiver.
The only potential violation would be the shipping method
shoot-n-iron said:
Something doesn't make sense with your statement.. Dealers ship handguns every day usps. The packages do not identify them as guns. These dogs who identify guns in boxes.... what then??
There is no way to know the box was shipped from a dealer. I've shipped over 1000 handguns in the last year via USPS with never a question anywhere along the route and no box was ever opened and at no time does anyone on the way know whether a dealer shipped that gun . The USPS form is just filed in my local PO
CraigC
Hawkeye
It's against federal law for a non-FFL to mail a handgun receiver. Doesn't matter what a jury would or wouldn't do. Get caught breaking a federal law by mailing a handgun receiver and your life will become much more difficult than necessary. Juries are not required for a regulatory agency to levy fines.
This is not a regulation or shipping code, this is a federal statute:
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]
Stamping a serial number on a part does not make it a firearm. Only the receiver.
All else is mental masturbation.
If you have half a brain and still want to break the rules, ship it UPS or FedEx Ground. At least then all you've broken are company policies and not federal law.
This is not a regulation or shipping code, this is a federal statute:
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]
Stamping a serial number on a part does not make it a firearm. Only the receiver.
All else is mental masturbation.
If you have half a brain and still want to break the rules, ship it UPS or FedEx Ground. At least then all you've broken are company policies and not federal law.
golferboy426 said:
A non FFL person can ship legally to a FFL in or out of state, just not to another non FFL over state lines, you have a FFL you can ship how ever you want for those of us non FFL holders we have to follow ATF's rules and be careful to follow the law.
RME said:
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