Powder question

[Clovishound]

A little background. I have been reloading for about a year and half. I load only 38 spl and 9mm. I load predominately cast bullets. I started out with Titegroup, and then switched to Universal. I find that Universal is a much better powder for me, especially with cast. Too many leading problems with Titegroup.

Anyway, the problem is that I am almost out of powder. For a variety of reasons, I got caught with only a pound and a half of powder when pistol powder disappeared off the shelves. I started to see a few types of pistol powders start to show back up locally a month ago or so. Primers are back in stock everywhere, as are most other reloading equipment. Still no pistol powder.

I have come to the realization that I may have to grab a pound of powder when it becomes available without doing a lot of prior research as to whether on not it is really an appropriate powder for my needs. What I am looking for is a list of powders that I can grab without doing a head slap after I get home with it, and find I really can't, or don't want to use it.

I have been happy with Universal, and had some experience with HP38. I have heard good things about Unique. Those three are on my list. The criteria is a middle speed powder good for 9mm and 38 shooting cast target loads.

If I run out completely, and things don't pick up locally, I may be forced to try and put together an order along with my buddy, and order a large quantity online. The shipping and hazmat fee are a killer, but can be amortized with a large order. The other option is to persuade my buddy to go to the next local gun show and pick up some powder, hoping that prices aren't hyper inflated. I work weekends, so I don't have the option of going myself.

Any input appreciated.

 

[Rodfac]

For use with almost any center fire hand gun cartridge, it's very hard to find a better powder than Winchester 231 or its twin HP38. Either is superb with 9's, .38's, .44's...it's my go to powder for all light to medium loads. I'm predominantly a cast bullet shooter as well, and have found that 231 works well, meters superbly, and provides all the accuracy the gun is capable of.

Unique is somewhat slower than HP38 or 231, but it's major drawback lies in its lousy metering characteristics...variations of +- 0.2 to 0.3 grains are routine in my progressive Dillon 550B's. Measuring through Redding and RCBS measures is little better. Dirty when it burns, too, I gave up on Unique for any loads 15 years ago.

For leading issues, as you know, the bullet must fit the bore, actually it needs to be .001" over groove dia. for best results. In your situation, I'd try tumbling your commercially produced bullets in Lee Liquid Alox (LLA) thinned with paint thinner by 20%. I use a cottage cheese tub, and swirl lube all my home cast as well as purchased commercial bullets this way, and have found significantly less leading. The hard lube that commercial casters use looks good, holds in the lube grooves throughout shipping, but does not lube well unless pushed very fast...a prescription for leading. The LLA mitigates these sorts of problems..

LLA will obviously coat the entire bullet, and some loaders object to the slightly tacky lube on the bullet noses. An alternative is to use White Label's 45-45-10 lube in the same manner that LLA is used, ie. swirl lubing in a plastic tub. It dries in a cpl hours, and does not leave the bullet noses sticky. I use it on all lead alloy bullets...good people to deal with too. You can find them at: www.LsStuff.Com.

HTH's Rod

 

[Clovishound]

Thanks for the reply. I am currently using home cast bullets in 38 and trying them for 9mm. I have no leading in 38 using either alox or pan lube with beeswax/lithium grease/ATF lube. Bullets are sized to .358. I am still having trouble with 9mm leading, but am still working through the problem. The bottom line may be the mold may cast them a little too small. They measure about .3565. The .356 commercial hard cast shoot with little to no leading in 9 using Universal. Alox will be my next option, if the current batch of unsized pan lubed don't solve the problem. The .356 sized with pan lube were much better than the same in Titegroup, but still too much lead in the barrel.

The good news is commercial hard cast are readily available again. If I can't lick the leading problem in 9, I will go back to commercial bullets.

That is, assuming I can get some powder soon.

 

[Tellico]

[/quote] I have come to the realization that I may have to grab a pound of powder when it becomes available without doing a lot of prior research as to whether on not it is really an appropriate powder for my needs. What I am looking for is a list of powders that I can grab without doing a head slap after I get home with it, and find I really can't, or don't want to use it.


Any input appreciated.[/quote]

WSL
HS-5
N330
Power pistol
SR7625
HS-6
Herco
WSF
Can all be used if you find any of them. Along with the 3 you named. Not saying they are the best. I use what is available until I can find what I want.
Fred

 

[DGW1949]

Thanks for the reply. I am currently using home cast bullets in 38 and trying them for 9mm. I have no leading in 38 using either alox or pan lube with beeswax/lithium grease/ATF lube. Bullets are sized to .358. I am still having trouble with 9mm leading, but am still working through the problem. The bottom line may be the mold may cast them a little too small. They measure about .3565. The .356 commercial hard cast shoot with little to no leading in 9 using Universal. Alox will be my next option, if the current batch of unsized pan lubed don't solve the problem. The .356 sized with pan lube were much better than the same in Titegroup, but still too much lead in the barrel.

The good news is commercial hard cast are readily available again. If I can't lick the leading problem in 9, I will go back to commercial bullets.

That is, assuming I can get some powder soon.

Many 9MM pistols have a faster twist-rate than does the 38Spl. That aspect not only creates a greater tendency for a lead bullet to sort of "skid" as it engages the rifling, the faster twist-rate also causes extra pressure compared to say....shooting the same 9MM load out of a "convertable" revolver. That kinda-sorta tells me that you may need a harder alloy than you can get by with when casting for your .38...and possably, a different lube.
Back when I reloaded 9MM, it wasn't unusual for me to buy hard-cast bullets, and have to coat them (factory lube and all) with Alox. Doing that helped a lot, yet still, I'd sometimes get objectable leading with some batches of commercial lead bullets no matter what I tried. Hopefully, your experimenting will go better than mine did.

DGW

 

[454PB]

You can't go wrong with Unique. It's not my favorite powder (Blue Dot is), but it works well in everything from 9mm to 45.70.

Yes, it is a PITA to throw consistently from a powder measure, but using the "double tap" method on the throw handle, I can get it to accurately meter within .1 grain. If you're using a progressive loader, it's not the powder for you.

231 and HP38 are good choices, but a bit on the fast side for larger cartridges. AA5 and AA7 meter beautifully and are slower burning than Titegroup, 231/HP38.

 

[WESHOOT2]

In MY order of pref:

-Power Pistol
-W231/HP38
-Unique
-Bullseye
-others.....

But in 38 Special I burn mostly Universal, and in 9x19 I burn mostly WAP.

 

[Sheriff]

Nothing wrong with Unique, been using it with cast in pistols and rifles since about 1964. In certain applications there are better powders, but, day in, day out, you can't beat Unique's versitilty. IMO.

 

[6gun]

There are better powders than Unique, it's a nasty dirty powder, I wouldn't use it.

 

[Paul B]

"I am still having trouble with 9mm leading, but am still working through the problem. The bottom line may be the mold may cast them a little too small. They measure about .3565."

I would try adding some tin to your alloy. That should make your bullets cast a bit larger. I have no idea of the cost these days but hit your loacal hardware store and get a spool of 95/5 percent lead free solder. That's 95 percent tin; the 5 percent being either silver or copper. I've never used the one with copper. There may some others that other metals as the 5 percent portion but I'd stick with the silver bearing solder. Dunno if you can get your mold to casting bullets as large as .358" but that's the size that works best in my 9MM. I slugged the barrels of three 9MM handguns and the average was .357". :shock: That's from two American and one foreign batch of handguns.
Sorry to disagree with some but my pet load is 5.0 gr. of Unique and the 120 gr. Lyman #356402. I also like 5.0 gr. of Unique in my .38 Spl. handgund but then again I'm not so lazy that I don't clean my handguns at the end of a range session. :roll:
Paul B.

 

[Paul B]

There are better powders than Unique, it's a nasty dirty powder, I wouldn't use it.

What if it's all you can find on the shelf? Then what?
Paul B.

 

[chefrob1]

....... AA5 and AA7 meter beautifully and are slower burning than Titegroup, 231/HP38.

currently using AA5 for my g/f's .380 and it meters great in my 550b............

 

[6gun]

There are better powders than Unique, it's a nasty dirty powder, I wouldn't use it.

What if it's all you can find on the shelf? Then what?
Paul B.

I never let my shelf get that bare mines got plenty of 231 on it. if Unique all you can get your stuck with it, better you than me.

 

[Paul B]

Well all I will say is stick me with it. I have handgun loads, shotgun loads and rifles loads. It really is "unique" You knw, much of the mess from Unique comes from the lube used on cast bullets. A PITA but well worth the trouble for the good results.
FWIW, Bullseye, Unique, #6, 5066 (both discontinued years ago) and #2400 are all basically composed of the same configuration. Some have more nitroglycerin added that others depending on the formulation. FWIW, the only one with the wide flakes is Unique. If I were to put the others in small piles, I doubt if you could tell the difference. I really liked 5066 in the .45 ACP. That one with the 200 gr. H&G #68 bullet was the most accurate load I ever ran through my 1911. Unique was #2.
Paul B.

 

[6gun]

Unique was developed as a shotgun powder, handguns were a secondary use, I'd rather stick with powders developed specifically for what I'm using it for, just my opinion and my option to use what works best for me, I use mostly Winchester powders and some IMR (all made by Hodgdon now days) none of them have ever let me down, I'm to set in my ways to try many other brands

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Added to the list, I've loaded a lot of both .38s and 9mm w/ the now discontinued Win 540. According to Hodgdon's, TODAY'S version of HS-6 is identical.

Can't say it was always that way, so to keep your loading data and powder mfr dates pretty close to each other, as was suggested to me decades ago, isn't bad advice.

And just to stir the fire, I've used more Unique than several others combined. For pretty much the same reasons Paul B mentioned: it's hard to find another powder that does so well across such a wide range of applications.

Rick C

 

[6gun]

Hi,

Added to the list, I've loaded a lot of both .38s and 9mm w/ the now discontinued Win 540. According to Hodgdon's, TODAY'S version of HS-6 is identical.

Can't say it was always that way, so to keep your loading data and powder mfr dates pretty close to each other, as was suggested to me decades ago, isn't bad advice.

And just to stir the fire, I've used more Unique than several others combined. For pretty much the same reasons Paul B mentioned: it's hard to find another powder that does so well across such a wide range of applications.Rick C

231 is not hard to find.

 

[Rick Courtright]

231 is not hard to find.

Hi,

Didn't say it was, although anyone who's been powder shopping recently might suggest otherwise.

Rick C

 

[GasGuzzler]

Bullseye, Unique, 2400....now I am the opposite, may be trying Titegroup for the first time.

231 is hard to find locally. It must me sold at the same place that constantly stocks .22LR at regular retail price.

 

[5of7]

3 powders will satisfy 99% of your handgun handloading needs; AA2, or another powder of a similar burn rate, Universal, or another powder of a similar burn rate, and 2400 or another powder of similar burn rate.

AA2 and Red Dot, Green Dot, PB, and others cover the faster powders.

Universal and Unique, 4756, and others will cover the medium burn rates .

2400 and AA9, H110, ww296 and others will cover the slower powders.

Use only data that applies to specific powders of course.....have fun, but play safe. 8)

 

[Paul B]

Hi,

Added to the list, I've loaded a lot of both .38s and 9mm w/ the now discontinued Win 540. According to Hodgdon's, TODAY'S version of HS-6 is identical.

Can't say it was always that way, so to keep your loading data and powder mfr dates pretty close to each other, as was suggested to me decades ago, isn't bad advice.

And just to stir the fire, I've used more Unique than several others combined. For pretty much the same reasons Paul B mentioned: it's hard to find another powder that does so well across such a wide range of applications.Rick C

231 is not hard to find.

No, I have a good supply of W231. However, W231 is a faster burning powder than Unique closer to Bullseye in burning rate. When I load .38 Spl. wadcutter target loads, my pet load is 3.1 gr. of bullseye or W231. Point of impact is exactly the same from my revolver.
I shoot cast bullets almost exclusively in my handguns. The exception being the factory loads in my CCW weapon. Practice is with equivilant power cast bullet loads though. The only difference between Bullseye, Unique and 2400 is the size of the flake and the deterrent coating on the powder. It's too bad #6 and 5066 were discontinued as in my .45 ACP loads 5066 was just about equal to Unique in power as I recall. FWIW, with cast bullets all those powders are dirty. It's the soot and lube combine that makes the mess. I understand the latest version of Unique is supposed to be cleaner but I'm still working on the last big cannister I bought.
Paul B.

 

[Tellico]

I forgot Trail Boss. 5.0 gr TB with a 200gr SWC in .45 ACP is as clean and accurate as anything else I have tried in many years. except for Vihtavuori n350.
Fred

PS No 231 in MT that I can find.

 

[Cholo]

I've lucked into 2 #'s of 231 in the last month. It's been very scarce around here. When I had gotten below a #, I started loading my 45ACP's with Unique. Love it or hate it, I can load most any handgun caliber with Unique and it does just fine.

 

[WESHOOT2]

W231 is 'slower' than Bullseye.

 

[6gun]

I've been real lucky to have a LGS that aways has what ever powder I want in stock, I think he always has a supply cause he don't put it out on the shelf he keeps it in back and you have to ask for it, I think most people don't know to ask and just don't know he sells powder.

 

[DGW1949]

FWIW.....If the more-recent Unique is any cleaner-burning than the old Unique, I can't tell the difference. Thankfully though, I can't tell any difference on the target either....meaning that 40 years after my playing-around with various pistol-powders, it's still about all I use.

DGW

 

[dougader]

If target loads in 9mm and 38 is on the menu then 231 is a fine powder for the task at hand, as are AA2, WST, American Select, Zip, Solo 1000 and the like.

I'd use Power Pistol, WAP/Silhouette, HS6, AA7 and other medium burn powders for max and +p loadings of these two calibers.

 

[6gun]

If target loads in 9mm and 38 is on the menu then 231 is a fine powder for the task at hand, as are AA2, WST, American Select, Zip, Solo 1000 and the like.

I'd use Power Pistol, WAP/Silhouette, HS6, AA7 and other medium burn powders for max and +p loadings of these two calibers.

How is Power Pistol compared to 231 for 45acp ? I have never used Power Pistol since I only shoot revolvers, I have been teaching my kid to reload since he has a 45 auto, I'm trying to get him to experiment more with different loads, so far all he has tried is 231 which works very well and very accurate, but I hear Power Pistol is a great choice also just wondering if it better for auto pistols.?

 

[Rick Courtright]

How is Power Pistol compared to 231 for 45acp ? I have never used Power Pistol since I only shoot revolvers

Hi,

6gun, I haven't loaded it either, but understand from Alliant's literature when it was new that it was originally designed for 9mm use. Also understand it's a very good choice there!

Since then, they've added both auto and revolver recipes. Here are some to take a look at:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Powder.aspx?powderid=8

Good luck!

Rick C

 

[6gun]

How is Power Pistol compared to 231 for 45acp ? I have never used Power Pistol since I only shoot revolvers

Hi,

6gun, I haven't loaded it either, but understand from Alliant's literature when it was new that it was originally designed for 9mm use. Also understand it's a very good choice there!

Since then, they've added both auto and revolver recipes. Here are some to take a look at:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Powder.aspx?powderid=8

Good luck!

Rick C

Thanks for the link Rick, I compared the velocity for loading 45acp in 230gr. looking at the power pistol compared to 231, the power pistol looks to be a bit higher in velocity but uses a whole lot more powder to load, think were better off sticking with 231, not worth all the extra powder to get only a tiny gang in power. thanks anyway.