my take on +P loads....

[tek4260]

I had a S-10 with a 350 in it years ago

 

[BearHawk 357]

What if you want something between the Single Six and the Service Six?

A 38 Special +P is simply another cartridge designation for a revolver cartridge that is in between the 38 Special and a .357 Magnum. If I want something lighter and more mello than the .357, I might choose that one.

I have already covered this by saying that in some cases it makes sense to use a heavy load. We see the +P designation most oftenly in the 38 special and we all use it for personal protection. I'm not trying to get hung up on this fine detail. Forget the highly maketable +P designation for a second and substitite it with the term "heavy loads" (no matter which caliber). This is the type of thing to which I am, more accurately, attemping to refer.

The number one rule of gun fighting is to bring enough gun. I don't go elk hunting with my NAA .22 short revolver. However, I would surely hunt elk with factory, cast, 45 colt loads. I ask this question: If my j-frame is maxed out with +P 38 specials then why would I carry it? If that is the minimal level of power that is needed to take out a violent criminal then I need a bigger gun. It's kind of like the guys who shoot groundhogs with .22 stingers. They work but not always. They are still a little too weak at 100 yards. Just because it is "strong for it's size" doesn't mean that it is the propper caliber selection for the task at hand. I'll keep the chambers on my 22's in spec by shooting standard velocity 22 ammo. If I need to take out a pesky groundhog then I'll use some low velocity .223 (better barrel life, less flinch, quieter etc..... as compared to amped up .223 loads). Tin cans and paper don't really know the difference either.

 

[BearHawk 357]

Would one put a 350 V8 in an S-10 to use your analogy, and then drive around in low gear? No fun in that!

I see your point. However, the car analogy is to show the relationship, between small items, that are loaded nearly to the point of reaching critical mass, to other items (guns) that are loaded in a similar fashion. Saying that a person must not be having any fun because they are not pushing things to their breaking point isn't really the point. It's actually the mindset that I'm trying to argue.

Have I ever "lit up the tires" of my big bore revolvers? You bet I have. But when I shoot the big stuff I am only burning off some testosterone....no other reason. I like "driving around in low gear" so to speak, when it comes to shooting. It's still fun. Why do you think that the heavy barrel target 10-22's are so much fun to shoot? It's because they embrace the principles that I'm trying to push. Improved marksmanship skills, low recoil, low report, builds confidence, cheaper, gun lasts forever etc. When I take this approach to other forms of shooting then I see marked benifits....all across the board.

 

[P90]

When I was young I had a GMC Pickup with a Police Interceptor Engine and a Ruger Blackhawk that I hand loaded for. I hot-rodded them both. Now I have a Ford Ranger 4CYL and a P90 that I load for, and I don't hotrod either one. Think it might have something to do with age?

 

[BearHawk 357]

When I was young I had a GMC Pickup with a Police Interceptor Engine and a Ruger Blackhawk that I hand loaded for. I hot-rodded them both. Now I have a Ford Ranger 4CYL and a P90 that I load for, and I don't hotrod either one. Think it might have something to do with age?

P90,

Wisdom does seem to come with age. However, that is not always the case. Some guys will never see the brute strength of just being efficient. Just be thankful that you are one of the fortunate ones who have.

 

[Cary]

When I was young I had a GMC Pickup with a Police Interceptor Engine and a Ruger Blackhawk that I hand loaded for. I hot-rodded them both. Now I have a Ford Ranger 4CYL and a P90 that I load for, and I don't hotrod either one. Think it might have something to do with age?

Heck no Calvin. It's all that wisdon we have gathered over the years. :roll:
Cary

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with the enough is enough philosophy.

However....

Certainly some of the cartridges that were developed for very low pressures can be modernized, but usually it doesn't take all that much of an improvement to make a quite different proposition.

A good example is the 44 Special. Loaded to a velocity of ~ 1000 fps, a hard cast 240 grainer, in a good solid gun like the Blackhawk is a very innocuous load and makes it quite capable of anything that one might expect to use a 44 Special for. Of course the gun makes all the difference, I wouldn't be anxious to shoot that load in a Charter Arms Bulldog. 8)

 

[Anonymous]

When I was young I had a GMC Pickup with a Police Interceptor Engine and a Ruger Blackhawk that I hand loaded for. I hot-rodded them both. Now I have a Ford Ranger 4CYL and a P90 that I load for, and I don't hotrod either one. Think it might have something to do with age?

:lol: That reminds me of the day I finally figured out that driving to Battle Creek at 55 MPH only took 4 minutes longer than driving it at 70 MPH and I didn't have the frustration of trying to get around those "old farts" who were just driving the speed limit.......Annnnnddddd, no more tickets to boot.

Age does have it's advantages. 8)

 

[nn]

I was +P, now I use a bigger gun.

 

[WESHOOT2]

Oh my; I feel I cannot comment........or, "Why I love my 357 Redhawk".

 

[demo_slug]

so if you are going to "grab the right gun" why not grab a 45colt if you are shooting reduced loads with your 460v?

Because a 45 colt round has to "jump" a pretty big gap when shooting one out of the longer cylinder of a 460. .

that wasn't the question I asked. oh well. never mind.

 

[AzRebel]

If I'm inclined, or forced to shoot a bear, I want to finish the job quickly and humanely. A 300 grain bullet at 1200 FPS or so gives me more confidance for such needs than the same bullet at 700 fps.

While 300 grains at 1200 fps does indeed sound like great bear "medicine" I rate my confidence level, in regards to hunting, by one single criteria. That is: Can I hit my mark? I would rather hit a deer, in the heart, 999 times out of 1000, with a .223 rather than blast the ankles off of an animal, with a 12 gauge slug, just because I felt that it gave me a false sense of confidence. Most handgun hunters will state that shot placement is probably more important than "power-housing."

I consider one's ability to hit their target as priority #1. I don't have a problem hitting my target with 300 gr @ 1200 fps loadsfrom my .45 Colt, and I don't need to shoot a .223 to hit what I'm shooting at with a rifle. If you are recoil shy, then by all means, use what you shoot well.

And, if one needs the extra weight of a handgun built for .460 loads in order to accurately shoot a 300 grain bullet at 1200 fps, needs that load, and doesn't mind carrying the extra weight, then that's obviously their best choice. Some folks are more recoil sensitive than others.

But if I can shoot just as accurately with a SA .45 with an equal weight bullet at an equal velocity, then I see no difference in the end result. If I can shoot just as accurately with a 300 grain/1200 fps load as you can with a lighter load, then I see a possible advantage with the heavier load. It may not be needed, and may not result in a quicker kill, but then again, it won't kill any slower, either.

Another thing that I have learned about handgun hunting is that penetration trumps expansion. Who cares if tons of internal damage is created, by a hollow point, if you only have one hole (drain) in the game animal and you never find it due to running out of blood while tracking it. My new way of thinking is to shoot something light enough in recoil to be accurate while keeping the projectile solid enough to simply just pass through. "Finishing the job" as it pertains to hunting deals with recovery and not just bulk firepower. I have a feeling that more game would be recovered if more hunters used this basic philosophy.

Again, I pretty much agree with you. I don't use hollow point bullets in my larger handguns, and instead stick to either cast or JSP's.

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Why would someone feel the need to buy and shoot a 460 at low power when all they have to do is ramp up their 45 colts? Ummm....are you kidding? Heavy gun + light load = pleasure to shoot. It makes more sense, to me, to shoot guns at their lower pressure levels rather than at their upper limitations....no matter what caliber is being discussed.

And I don't disagree with you in making choices for what YOU want to shoot and carry. I don't find the recoil of my handgun(s) with my loads objectionable, and I don't want to carry an extra heavy gun on my hip all day, every day while hunting to keep from feeling recoil when I finally get around to shooting it.

Again, if I can shoot either one equally well, then I'm going to choose the ligher gun for long time, long distance carry...every time.

Do not assume that another can't shoot something well, simply because you yourself haven't mastered it.

If I walked a quarter mile out in the woods, and than waited in a blind all day, then I probably wouldn't mind the extra weight (even if I felt there was really no need for it for my abilities). However, on any given day I might walk several miles from one observation point to the next, or spend the day slipping through the jack-pines, up and down, in and out of steep canyons. I've been known to carry a large trash bag instead of a heavy poncho at times just to reduce the weight I had to carry.

So to answer your question, no, I wasn't kidding. As I said above, if one is recoil shy, and needs the extra weight to shoot that load well, then by all means go for it.

But don't expect everyone else to make the same choice. My firearms with my loads fill my needs remarkably well, and I've yet to make a choice in firearms based on another's opinion and/or abilities.

My years of experience are limited compared to some here, having only been shooting and hunting with handguns since about 1980. That said, I've hunted enough to form some definite opinions about what works well for me, my abilities, and my own style of hunting. I'm not a newb at this by any stretch, and while my opinions may vary from others, that in no way makes them "wrong".

A man should know his limitations, no doubt. I'll freely admit that a .300 Win mag is towards to upper limit of what I care to shoot in a rifle. I much prefer a 7mm Rem Mag, and if that level isn't needed, a .243 works wonderfully. I have no problems shooting a 12 gauge, but usually use a 20 gauge for quail and dove, since it works well for me. I honestly don't know what "limit" I'd find in handguns, since heavy loaded .45 Colt loads are plenty for what I do, and I don't find them to be harsh. I think a .454 would be more than I'd care for, but I've yet to shoot one.

We all have a limit.

Daryl

 

[Bucks Owin]

Gee, a bunch of old hot rodders around here! :lol: I have a short box Ford P/U with a built up 428 in it. It runs 14's with no posi and 3:00 gears. But sadly, it gets around 9 mpg and so has been mostly sitting for a couple years. My 345K mi Cherokee gets double that mileage and will climb trees almost and just won't die!..Can't seem to let go of my hot rod though, still like to smoke 'em up once in awhile... :lol: WAY off topic, Dennis

 

[KWYJIBO]

I agree that for most shooting we don't need magnum pressure loads. Most of the loads I use are at or below the middle of the chart. But every once in a while I want the maximum power I can safely get away with. For example, if I'm hiking or camping in an area where I think there might be bears, I look for the heaviest load available. The discussions of these high-power loads get the most attention--that doesn't mean they get shot a lot. It's just that most of us don't find the low-power stuff very interesting, even if we use it.

 

[Tommy Kelly]

I own quite a good selection of handguns and reload for all of them. I reload everything I load below the max load usually 1 gr below max loads. This is a safe load supposedly for all handguns in any condition. I also have several 22 handguns that I shoot most of the time both are rugers 1 a mkIII and the other a single six. I buy the bulk ammo from wal-mart for them with the 550 per box stuff they see most of my handgun use. but I keep a good stock of loaded ammo for the others on hand just don't shoot them a lot. I have just about every caliber pistol made from the 500 S&W to the 25 auto. Yes I have some of the 700 grain bullets loaded and in the 500 but they were loaded with 1 gr less than the data I got with the bullets. I shoot the 22's most of the time and shoot the bigger pistols a lot less. I don't believe in hot rodding my guns either mainly because if I want more power all I have to do is pick up a different caliber and have more without stretching a smaller one out. A milder load is more fun to shoot anyway. I don't call my loads hot loads by any sense of the term.

 

[CraigC]

Sometimes being different is the whole point. One thing that I found out when swapping the 350 into my S-10 was how much easier it was to work on than the little V6 that was half the displacement and a third the power. Think I've pretty much outgrown that particular 'need' and wish I could get half the money out of that damn thing that I have in it.

 

[Pal Val]

On the automobile analogy: My friend George M. installed (better yet, jammed) a .327 V-8 and Corvette tranny into a '73 Chevy Vega back in '76. Someone actually sold him a kit for doing that!

We took the finished car (painted bright yellow) to a large parking lot and he decided to burn some rubber. The torque from the engine actually stood the car on two wheels. Later, he did (I chickened out of that trip) 140 in the expressway with that car. At least, that's what the cops' radar gun marked. The speeding ticket was a doozy! A couple months later, he drove the car off a small cliff into the sea, and it's a miracle he survived the crash. The car didn't.

Likewise, I keep reading of people trying to turn a .38 special gun into a .357 mag, a .44 spec into a .44 mag, etc. Death wish? I know a fellow whose handloads never go less than 10% ABOVE listed maximums. He believes that reloading manuals have a 30% safety margin in their max loads. His loads for the T/C Contender pistol really get your attention! He blew up a S&W revolver in his hand once. He's lucky he didn't get seriously hurt. They had the gun hanging from the wall at the club for a while. Every time I see him at the range, I set up 4 or 5 lanes away.

Call it self-preservation. I don't have his death wish.

 

[Doxadude]

Geeze.... I told my self I wasn't going to post a reply to this thread... now look at me. No will power...

Here's my take... In terms of the new 44 special blackhawk... I am not interested in running it up to 44 mag levels. What I am interested in are the areas in between the SAAMI .44 special and .44 mag. I like the just under 1000 fps / 250 grain Keith bullet load. To me it's just right on that platform.

 

[tomiswho]

This is the kind of thread that makes those of us who shoot .45 Colt to sit back and smile and continue to realize what a fantastic caliber we chose.

 

[flatgate]

Ah, yes, fiberglass CJ-5 with a "warm" Chev 350, 2.02 heads, good cam, headders, Super T-10 4 sp., Warn Over Drive, Dual Drive rear Diff., 5.38 gears, 33" tires. It is just as much fun to drive at 1 mph as it is to do the Sand Drags at Full Throttle.

Some guns get shot with +P loads ONLY. Some get "medium" loads and then the .22's can be the most fun of all.

Diff'rent Strokes for Diff'rent Folks........

JMHO,

flatgate