just for info sake/safety

[Olsherm]

I just thought it might be good to pass on this info.Someone suggested I read Dave Scovills book(loading the peacemaker) for loads for my single actions.He shows some loades he used that are way beyond what Hodgsdon recommends as Max:examples-38/40 he shows using 10 grs of Universal with 180Gr bullet-Hodgsdon recommends,Hodgsdon shows 7.5grs as a max load.44/40 he shows 9.5 grs of universal 200gr bullet where Hodgsdon recommends only 7.5 grs as a max load.45 colt he shows using 9.5 grs of universal with 255gr bullet where Hodgsdon only shows 7.8 grs as a max load??All slugs were cast bullets.Sounds a bit warm to me?? JMHO

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I reload a little for a cowboy shooter friend, I also have a Ruger Vaquero in 44-40 that I reload for and shoot. I have read a lot of things about loads for these older rounds.

...and I'm fascinated by some of this stuff and the variances in info.

Many guys had "rifle only" loads and that makes sense. Many say that the modern load data for 38-40 is mostly low even for pistol, that the 38-40 is the old west .357 mag and can and should be loaded as such.

I'm not advocating any of this, some of the guns being used are well over a hundred years old and have gone from blackpowder to old smokeless to new but it really is interesting to me.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Sounds a bit warm to me?? JMHO

Hi,

Ok, I'll be the one to sit quaking in the corner that everyone calls "chicken" on this subject:

As far as I'm concerned, there's not a job that needs to be done, whether w/ rifle or pistol, that we don't have a "proper" firearm and "tested" caliber for already. So, for example, one can hotrod a .45 Colt all day trying to get it to do, huffing and puffing, what a .454 Casull does w/o taking a deep breath when it's just waking up from a nap. Hence, the answer's already there...

So... my thought on "overloading" these old calibers is "don't." Use them as they were intended, and if they don't do enough, get a bigger gun. Especially since so many of them are being used for cowboy shooting, which doesn't take hot ammo, and a lot of the guns are either old, or NOT built to take these hotrodded loads.

And then there are the thoughts of the manufacturers: Ruger's not alone in both NOT recommending handloads, AND saying their guns are safe w/ SAAMI spec factory ammo. They make thousands, hundreds of thousands, of guns, and somewhere in there I'd think they've learned just a TINY BIT more than the gun rag writer who cooks up something and claims it's "safe in my gun" simply because he hasn't blown it up. Yet. More failures occur from repeated stress than a singe incident of overpressure.

"What about Hodgdon's," someone will ask? "They publish 'Ruger Only' loads!" Yes, they do. And perhaps their loads won't blow up a full strength BH, even after numerous firings. But when your gun DOES show evidence of impending failure after using 100s or 1000s of such loads, ask 'em to step up to the plate and buy you a new one. After all, they SAID it was safe! You can get back to us on that one!

Another thought on Hodgdon's: I've had reason to "suspect" a few of their recipes are a bit warm, even when they tell us they're SAAMI spec. So if those are POSSIBLY warm, then they heat 'em up a bit more in the "Ruger Only" column, then some writer heats THOSE up even more, it shouldn't be too hard to see there's a problem brewing.

But that's just my own opinion, so I'll retreat to my corner, quake a bit, maybe put in my earplugs if the taunts of "Rick's a chicken!" become too loud, and load some more ammo I know my gun will take "forever" w/o coming unglued and hurting myself, or worse, some guy who's totally innocent of my wrong doings... and if my .38 Spl just isn't hot enough, I can always grab the .357 Mag instead w/o even worrying. Then there's a .44 Mag next to it... ;)

Rick C

 

[mikld]

I think modern reloading info is intentionally kept light for "obsolete" cartridges because the majority of the guns these cartridges are shot are old, and prolly of old manufacturing technology and alloys, and aren't as strong as todays firearms. From my research the 38-40 has very similar statistics to the 40 S&W, but load info is usually lighter...

 

[Olsherm]

Well said Rick. BTY the Scovill guy was supposedly using a Colt single action with his loads.Makes me "quake" a little also. Besides they will hurt your hand.The sharp bottom corners of the grip on my Colt 45 digs a blister in the palm of my hand with 8 grs of Unique. Thats all I want to shoot and really I like about 4 1/2 to 5 grains of Trailboss better,cause all I do is shoot paper and cans or "clods".

 

[Jimbo357mag]

...and the other side of the coin is, if you know the gun in your hand can easily handle double or triple the pressure assigned to the cartridge by SAAMI standards, why not beef-up your load a little if you want to?

 

[Rick Courtright]

...and the other side of the coin is, if you know the gun in your hand can easily handle double or triple the pressure assigned to the cartridge by SAAMI standards, why not beef-up your load a little if you want to?

HI,

I dunno how others view it, but if Ruger says their gun is safe w/ factory SAAMI spec loads, that's ALL I know it can easily handle!

Since the .45 Colt seems to be the object of attention in most of these discussion, how do WE know Ruger didn't make a line change in the steel in the .45 Colt cylinder that makes it no longer safe at extended pressure levels? And it's not visible, like the obvious difference in dimensions between a "New Vaquero" and one of the earlier ones built to full BH spec... and we find our new gun IS one of those made after the change?

Personally, I don't KNOW my gun's safe for anything beyond what the mfr tells me it is. And just for the record, I developed that philosophy from personal experience, too. Ya want a hotrod .45 Colt? Get a .454 Casull, built for a 65kpsi load (or 50k cup.) That's 4+ times what's spec'd for the .45 Colt, so you should be able to have some fun. W/ Ruger's blessing, even?

Rick C

 

[Rclark]

Well, each of handle perceived risk in different ways.... Rick is on the 'very' conservative side, I, on the other hand, is in the middle, and others on the extreme side. Having researched the revolvers I am using, I am very comfortable on loading them up a bit. For example, I have no problem loading up my medium frame .44Spec with the Skeeter load (7.5g Unique under 240g SWC) and occasionally the Keith load (17g 2400 under 240g SWC) . With .45 Colt on the medium frame Ruger Flattops I have no problem loading up Tier 2 loads (around 20,000psi to 23,000psi). And on my Large Frame Blackhawks, I know it will handle Ruger Only Loads (per Linebaugh and Seyfried ... plus the reloading manuals ok it as well) and I am comfortable with that although I don't go there as no need. Tier 2 is all I require.... Each to their own :) . YMMV.

BTW, Lyman's latest manual shows 8.5g Unique as maximum for 255g bullet. I've shot a lot of 8.5g loads (both 250g RNFP and 255g SWC) through my revolvers.... Very easy shooting (to me). Brian Pearce, for tier 2 loads, shows 9.0g and 10.0g Unique loads (and these are under a 270g bullet). Good article by Brian in Handloader 246 on this (find pdf of article on-line). Taffin lists 8.5g and 9.0g Unique under 255g bullet in his 45 Colt tests. M.D. Smith goes up to 10.0g Unique. List goes on.....

I noticed Universal mentioned above.... Brian has standard 14,000psi loads using 8.5g under 255g SWC in Handloader 275.... In Handloader 246, 9.0 and 10.0g under 270g bullet for Tier 2 loads.... Just an FYI....

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I actually tend to agree with you Rick but after reading all the threads about loading the 45colt and the 44special to "useful" load levels I have been converted somewhat. I have been known to load on occasion what I call 44special+P but not often and not nearly as hott as many recommend. The popular Skeeter Skelton 44 special load of 7.5gr of Unique with a 250gr cast bullet is a little over-pressure by SAMMI standards. :D

 

[opos]

In the hot rod hobby there's an old saying..."no substitute for cubic inches"...I don't push much of anything even though I have guns that will take the stress just as I don't try to get 800 horses out of a 327...sure, blowers, turbos, nitrous, etc might let me push an envelope but why? Do an engine swap for more cubic inches and get reliability and safety as well as the "goodies"... Same with loading...I shoot lots of 45 Colt...I got guns that will stand pressures way above the "old" Colt 45 loads but if I want 44 magnum results I step up to my Super Blackhawk and make it go boom..I have a Lipsey's 44 special Flat top...I'm sure it can handle Skeeter loads if I choose to do that but I'd rather load up some 44 mag medium loads and have the performance of the Skeeter load and the safety valve of the stronger platform..I have a friend that regularly loads 38 special +P loads (really hot ones at that) in standard 38 special brass...I'd hate to accidentely get hold of some of his loads and try and shoot them in an old S/W 36 or something like that..If I look at a case that says 45 Colt I want to be sure that if I put it into a 45 Colt or clone that I'm going to walk away with all my body parts attached....I gave up pushing the envelope long ago but that's just an old guy at 74 talking...guess I probably pushed lots of things when I was younger.

 

[gramps]

.44 special at 700-800 fps is just plain anemic. A good lswc 240gr. bullet around 1,000 fps(13.5grs. 2400)is what a .44 special should be IMO. Right now all I have are .44 mags. When I had a Charter 2000, I used that load for a woods/field load and shot it sparingly. The funny thing is that my goto load for .357 mag is 13.5 grs. 2400 under a 158 gr. lswc. I love it cause I don't have to make a lot of changes with my Perfect Powder dispenser to load for either.
gramps

 

[Rclark]

.44 special at 700-800 fps is just plain anemic.

While I do agree... That still works for 'man stoppers'. I load on the high side of the loading table (staying within SAMMI) for my CA Bulldog that I CC. But the rest of my .44 specials get a steady diet of the Skeeter load which BTW is also in the 1000fps range. Personally I don't think the skeeter load is pushing any 'envelope'... My .44 Special 2400 testing started at 15g (1100fps) up to 17g (1246fps) to get acquainted with the Keith load which is pushing the envelope a bit. Still that is just on the bottom 'edge' of true .44Mag loads. This is with a 240g SWC BTW. If I need .44Mag loads (1200 to 1400fps), I'll grab a .44Mag.... or my .45 Colt large frame BH ;) .