honest

[Cheesewhiz]

Probably.

I have shot less than 1" at 21'. I shoot a bit more than that at 50'.

I shot this at 25yds some time back with a borrowed SA 357 revolver. Not the best I've ever done at that range but the best I have a picture of. Not sure what it would have been at 21'.

 

[Verndog]

Probably.

I have shot less than 1" at 21'. I shoot a bit more than that at 50'.

I shot this at 25yds some time back with a borrowed SA 357 revolver. Not the best I've ever done at that range but the best I have a picture of. Not sure what it would have been at 21'.

Wow...I need Revs autograph then!!

I guess I can relate what your saying to bowling and golf. Bowling, once you get decent you aim at the arrows on lanes not the pins and get closer to the pocket, golf much the same putting, find a mark part way there and aim for it. Must be 90% between the ears then. :idea:

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Whenever I talk to a non-gun person, I compare my target shooting to bowling, I hate bowling.

...but it keeps them calm.

 

[revhigh]

I think what Cheese is saying is that as you move farther and farther away, variables compound ... things like your eyesight ... wind .... effect of flinching, etc, and that the end variance is FAR more than the amount that the 'math' would indicate via a trigonometric formula's result.

And he'd be right.

It ALSO works the OTHER way as well. To assume that my target at 50 feet would result in a one hole target at 21 feet is also incorrect (although I wouldn't mind if it worked that way).

For the record ... the OP's pictured target (in the other thread) would most likely result in about a measured 2.5 - 3.0 inch group. Easily achievable with virtually ANY decent modern handgun that's not a mousegun (which are primarily limited in accuracy by their sights and sight radius ... not the gun itself).

REV

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Couple things:

1. Sight alignment errors (front sight in the proper position with respect to rear sight) fall into the trig calcs.

2. Sight positioning errors (placement of front sight with repect to the target) get worse with range (and age!).

3. Bullets don't fly straight. They are precessing the entire flight at handgun ranges. Group size will increase up to a point, and then decrease after a certain range. This all depends on bullet, velocity, etc.

I have a load for my RH that I can shoot under half in groups, benched with a scope, at 55 ft. I have shot that load under 2.5 inches at 100 yds, again, scoped and using a trigger stick bipod.

 

[Verndog]

If you shoot a two inch target at paper set out 21' and you absolutely know when you are going to shoot and you also know it doesn't shoot back, that's 12" to 14" at 50' under no duress whatsoever.

Vern, next time out try it (21', 50', 25yds), you'll see what I mean.

OK Cheese careful what you ask for.

First time out today with the 3 1/8" SP101 .327 magnum, this is my second time out shooting in last 6 months. I shot 24 rounds getting used to the gun then shot these 2 back to back, indoor range with not real great lighting. They were both shot 2 handed 10 seconds or less between rounds. By your 2" to 12" post I should be somewhere around 6x worse at 50' then 21'.

Target I made on computer and each arc is plotted exactly the radius shown 1,2,3,4" so as you are about to see I was slightly better then 3 to 1 not 6 to 1. :wink:
Range limit is 50' so I couldn't try further, but since I now need glasses for the first time in my life and refuse to get them...my guess is I'd go to hell another 25' away.

 

[HoBoBum]

a good friend of mine, and a fantastic pistolero, with paper and under combat conditions, always told me to practice shooting at the same distance as the distance across a room in my house - he surmised if the bad guy was further away than that, he probably couldn't see you anyway

 

[ArmedinAZ]

So then this group of Revs being 7x better from 50' back to 21' would mean pretty much 1 bullet hole??

Yes, a 1 large hole target. Vern, when I'm shooting regularly I can shoot 1" 5 shot groups @ 30 feet. Move the target to 50 feet and I can barely manage 3" groups. Nothing else changed. Frustrating, & challenging. Sometimes math & science don't work when you have to factor in biomechanical error. Like a shaky trigger nut. :wink:

Next time at the range shoot the best you can at 25' and 50'. Bet the results don't compute. It's what keeps me hooked.

 

[Anonymous]

Bet the results don't compute. It's what keeps me hooked.
Really makes it sound like golf- you hit a ball and slice it- make the same swing 45 seconds later and straight as an arrow. From the December issue of HANDGUNS, it's a long article but basically:
Start at 3 yards and pick a spot on your silhouette target- like the logo, or draw a small circle. Shoot until all your rounds are going into that target. Back up two steps and do the same, until you get far enough back you aren't hitting the small circle.
There were two articles on marksnmanship- none of this really new, we've probably all heard it somewhere before- but then they suggest moving to angles and doing the same thing. Like 3 yards to left, 3 yards to right. Finally you do hostage-type drills, where you have two heads, one being partially hidden like the BG behind the hostage. Practice making those headshots and not hitting the hostage.
Both the articles stressed dry-fire practice, since the above exercise would be pretty doggoned expensive.

 

[ArmedinAZ]

Your groups look like what I'd expect Vern. The close one about 1.5", the 50 foot about 4.5". That's pretty decent @ 50'.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

OK Cheese careful what you ask for.

'bout what I expected with your targets. Two targets from you wont change my learned theories and observations from over the years I've watched shooters shoot.
...and your results are as AIAZ said 3 to 1, I was hoping you would ask what the "plus 2 times" was for. That's for the guys that only shoot at 21', they tend to screw up a target twice as bad as someone who plays with their ranges a bit more adventuriestly.
I don't know why the short shooters do that, they should practice their zombie head shots at a bit farther away than 21', can't have all those stinking walking dead all up on you before you can do any real damage.

 

[ShannonNVA]

My eyes have gone to total garbare in the last few years. I'm in the real sucky stage of my vision going. Too strong for glasses all the time, but I totally need Walmart readers to read. Yesterday when shooting in the late afternoon/early evening I was thinking I could really use some bifocal safety glasses to see the front site. I may try night sights if Santa Claus gets me some (I haven't been too naughty this year, I think!)

My groups are ok, but I've always been able to get 4 out of 5 shots close together. Lord only knows what I'm thinking about on that other shot. Lately I've been trying to get a good fast accurate first shot. Figured that would be the best for me as I'm not going to threaten many folks on the scored target range.

 

[lipofsky]

The longest unobstructed distance anywhere in my house is 35' from the front wall in the Living room to the back door in the kitchen. The indoor range at club is 50', on a NRA B-2 target I put them all with-in the rings from my S&W mod 10 4" (The house gun, & when it stops going BANG I reload) I do also shoot in a competitive league and still chasing a 1st place ( doubtful I will get here tho) my comp gun is a Ruger MKII gov target with a red dot and I normally finish in the top 7 or 8. My steel plate guns are a .357 Blackhawk ,P-95, and as long as the plate guys stand still I get em every time. So how big is the group, we usually have about 20 shooters at the plate range and about 8 or 9 on practice night for the Postal league. I would say those are good size groups.
Just my thoughts on this, Have a Great Day :? :?

 

[ArmedinAZ]

Vern, I stand slightly corrected. I saw your 21' as 25'. Would have expected the 50' group to be slightly larger. But this is only 1 set of targets and doesn't represent an average.

What happens with your SR9C? It's called highly accurate by most owners, have you tried the same little test?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Shannon- read an article about glasses, and how it's rare for someone to be asleep and SHTF time comes, who will grab their glasses and their gun..? I can't see my front sight without my readers, but this particular expert was saying that in order to be prepared, (and this goes back to point-shooting) you really need to practice without the glasses. He also mentioned as you duck, run, cover, it's easy to lose the glasses. I haven't done it, but plan to remember to some time.

 

[ShannonNVA]

No doubt. I can hit a man size target at some distance, but I'm having a hell of a time seeing the sights in low light. I do practice panic shooting (off hand, no sights, empty the cylinder) on an LCR occasionally. I do that close in, maybe 15 feet. At that distance it is hard to miss.

I'm thinking night sights. I have a hard time on my SR9c seeing the rear sights, particularly in the shade or evening. I can focus on the front sight when there is light (mid-day), but when everything is fuzzy (or gone) it is tough. That or give in and get a laser.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeh, laser may be my only choice. I have a front-tritium and a weapon-light on my bedside gun- S&W SD9- it does help in the pitch-dark, but if much light at all it's of no use. I really am concentrtaing on one-handed point-shooting lately. Seems the most appropriate for SHTF. Mostly from 3-15 yards, and my groups get larger- larger- at 15. My 9c is nekkid right now, but Crimson Trace may be my C'mas present to myself.

 

[Verndog]

First impression on the laser. This is the first gun I've ever used a laser on, I wanted better grips, and the SP101 crimson trace has them built right into the grip and out of the way, seemed like a no brainer to add since it's for SD and the wife to shoot also.

Target shooting the laser kind of got in the way sometimes. When I focus on the front sight, the laser I could see red tint not really the dot, when I focused on the red dot, I'd loose the front sight. But for low light it helps alot! Also at greater distances it began helping more and more. It also helped me to see any movement while firing, a very nice tool there. I think all in all its a good SD tool especially as my eye sight declines, and given all the possible scenarios that could come up where I'd need to shoot quick or single handed or at some odd position.

On my 50' target I was surprised when I brought it in. I couldn't see where I was hitting (a bit dark at range end), so about all I could do was aim for center of white paper, and do the same for all 6 shots.

I will try this with the SR9c sometime soon and see what differences I notice, my guess is the 21' will be similar, and 50' a little worse without the laser aid. I may add a red dot to my targets so I can see better at distance also.

 

[Anonymous]

Keep forgetting that seeing the red laser can be a little harder than seeing the green, according to some. Anyone 'seen' the difference? I may have to get the viridian green.

 

[Verndog]

Keep forgetting that seeing the red laser can be a little harder than seeing the green, according to some. Anyone 'seen' the difference? I may have to get the viridian green.

Jeff, for me the color wouldn't matter. The red is very bright and easy to see. My point was for me personally I cannot "focus or concentrate" on both the sight 2ft from me and the target red or green dot 50ft from me...it's kind of one or the other, time lost going back and forth if you try using both. That is why I pointed out this comes to play mostly during target practice.

 

[ShannonNVA]

I've had the same problem with lasers on friends guns. I try to look at both, but that doesn't work. I end up lowering the gun slightly and using the laser. Otherwise it is like chasing a floater in your eye. You never catch it.

 

[explorecaves]

As a person with a degree in lasers and optics, I can tell you the reason for being able to see the green "better" than the red laser is due to the red blood cells in your eyes. Your eye naturally filters some red light where-as green light is in the contrasting spectrum thus the perceived "brighter" green light.

If you plan to keep it as an indoor home defense accessory, by all means get the green laser. If you plan to keep it in your car or in direct sunlight for extended periods of time, get the red. The technology for the green lasers have not reached the point where they are reliable for extended periods of time in high heat. I can get into the physics of it, but that is for another thread and another time....

 

[Anonymous]

Shannon, and explore, thank you. Like to know all I can before I pay for something like this.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

The technology for the green lasers have not reached the point where they are reliable for extended periods of time in high heat. I can get into the physics of it, but that is for another thread and another time....

...and the cold has an even far worse effect on green lasers, major warm up time to get a decent beam. Blue lasers are best in daylight and not effected by temp swings but very expensive and not good at night at all. Red is the best night laser but does wash out a bit during a bright day or in overly well lit area.
...but do work fine in almost any condition for range finding or designation.

I've had a CT grip laser for about five years on a CZ P-01. If I take it to the range, I'll use it for a target or two. It has a momentary grip switch that allows me to choose whether or not I use it or the sights for any shot in a string, pretty simple overall.

 

[revhigh]

If you're gonna buy a laser ... CT is the one to get.

REV

 

[wingman]

I have a Crimson Trace on my LCP and a LaserLyte on my SR9c. I like the LaserLyte better because I can turn it off if I want to where the CT will always be on when I'm shooting. I also have a problem maintaining constant pressure on the button of the CT so it stays on and it makes my shots a little shaky. But since I suffer weakness in my hands and fingers that might just be me. The reason I have them on my guns is so that I can acquire a target instantly without lining up the sights, which can be impossible in a high stress situation. Also If I find myself in an awkward position, off balance, laying down, behind cover, etc. I can acquire the target without aligning the sights. Of course the lasers are for self defense use only.

 

[ShannonNVA]

I like the idea of the laserlyte, if for nothing that I could use the same holsters I have.

 

[wingman]

I like the idea of the laserlyte, if for nothing that I could use the same holsters I have.

Good point. Actually thats why I went with the LaserLyte to begin with.

 

[Verndog]

...I like the LaserLyte better because I can turn it off if I want to where the CT will always be on when I'm shooting....

For my SP101 there is an off switch on bottom of grip to turn off, and it's pretty easy with some practice to not activate by letting tension off finger button. I just checked and your right about the 9c, there is no off switch. Where does the Laserlyte mount that it doesn't interfere with holster?

Check that...I found it...rear sight mount. No thanks, that location looks like a distraction to me.