for glockmutt

[soldernut]

glockmutt,

The bulge on the lower case looks to me like a consequence of a chamber that didn't fully support the case.

I've heard that some manufacturers, and especially Glock, rushed their 40s to market by "opening up" existing 9 designs. This allowed the feed ramp to intrude into chamber space in the 6 o'clock area.

Overloading may have been a factor, too, but I wonder if it would have caused such problems in a properly built gun with the chamber fully supporting the cartridge.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

Don't forget multiple loadings of the brass, too. At some point the brass will fail due to being "worked" too much, and that unsupported chamber will contribute to the brass being worked. As a tie-in to your other topic about reloading the .40, the pressure of the round will also make for shorter brass life. You might get 10 reloadings out of a .45 ACP case, but only 3 out of a .40 S&W. (WAG estimations, no basis in reality whatsoever, but if I reloaded .40 I would certainly be more leery of multiple loadings than I am with .45s.)

Also, I don't believe the issue existed because Glock "rushed" the fo-tays to market; That sounds like something the many Glock bashers out there would dream up. More likely (and I have read) they believed it needed a more open chamber for reliable cycling. It was determined later that they could tighten it up some.

-- Sam

 

[soldernut]

I'll freely admit that I don't know the true story of Glocks coming out with unsupporting chambers. I really don't care.

What I do care about is the situation in and of itself. You have a round that operates at high pressure, it's simply nuts design a chamber that doesn't fully support it.

Many thanks to all who've posted. I'm reconsidering my choice of the 40.

 

[seeemmiss]

They story on the Glock barrel does not hold water. Mr. Glock is cheaper that Bill Ruger ever thought about being. I have met him several times and know several stories of employees that suggested fixing the 40 and 45 barrel problem. Mr Glock said there is no problem and most of those people were removed from the company. Here is the story. The 40 and 45 both have oversized chambers and neither support the brass properly. The 40 cal unlocks extremely early due to the pressure. Remember this gun was designed to be a 9mm and the recoil system was the exact same until recently. There is now a two spring recoil system on the 40s that I have seen. Mr glock would have never retooled to make a better barrel just for the fun of it. He is too cocky and too cheap. The barrel was changed because there was a problem just like Ruger changed the action parts. These people are so confident In their designs that it takes years to admit if ever they are wrong. There is SO much more about this problem but I am typing on my phone and that is almost as difficult as convincing Mr Glock there is something wrong with his barrels.

 

[glockmutt]

Sorry, didn't see a thread directed at little old me. I've been reloading since the 70's and if you are doing it for any length of time you are gonna have an "oops" over something. I've heard, read, seen and even caused some of them. Figure out what the problem was, write it down as experience and don't do it anymore. In the post I stated I was pushing Major Power Factor in a high pressure cartridge for IPSC competition and it decided to push back. All the comments I've read are valid and a combination of them were probably the root cause. I don't shoot competition anymore so my loading is on the mild side. Lot more fun that way. Even dug out my furnace and started casting again after many years. My RCBS cast 9mm, 40 and 45 bullets. Life is good.....LOL!

 

[Ruber]

I know this is for Glockmutt, but I'd though I'd share my experiences as it seems we are all tainted by our own personal experience...

In the mid-90's I was working along the border in San Diego, carrying a Glock 22. The range we used to practice in had several folks using similar early model Glocks. For a while, I was the guy that sorted the brass. Mostly .40 S&W followed by 9mm followed by .45 ACP with .380 a distant 4th. My philosophy on the .40 S&W was that it was a one trick pony, a defensive round, nothing else. Treating it that way, loading was very simple and cheap, no one at the range pushed the limits or experimented.

In the past 15 years at that range, no Glock "Kabooms" and I personally have not found any bulged .40 S&W brass, like I had said, people there just did not hot rod that round. I've seen the photos and I'm not trying to say Glock "Kabooms" don't happen.

In the past year I have seen two Sig 9mm "Kabooms" even though the majority of shooters are using Glocks in .40S&W, and the Sigs tend to have a good reputation and both were with factory ammo. Nothing against Sigs, I own two, just trying to illustrate a point.

To add to that, in the late 90's I was working on a fire break along the border when a Glock 22 had been unknowingly dropped (not mine). After being churned into the sand and gravel who knows how many times, it was finally turned up by one of the compactors. We tested the Glock full of dirt and sand, it fired off all 16 rounds without a hickup. It gave good service for years afterward too.

There are lots of folks that justifiably like the feel of the big .45 on their side, and I enjoy shooting 1911s as much as the next guy, but the Glock 22 sure has earned a place by my side in the field!

 

[soldernut]

Ruber,

Thanks for the informative post. Interesting about the lost & found Glock. I keep hearing great things about their durability.

So I'll risk posing a dangerous question:

I'm now leaning toward the 45 ACP. Which Glock models are considered best in that caliber? I want to avoid anything "early" enough that it may have been built on a 9mm platform. If I buy a 45, it's be a gun that started out to be a 45 from the ground up.

 

[seeemmiss]

In the past 15 years at that range, no Glock "Kabooms" and I personally have not found any bulged .40 S&W brass, like I had said, people there just did not hot rod that round. I've seen the photos and I'm not trying to say Glock "Kabooms" don't happen.

Try loading that brass in a SAMMI spec chamber and see if it feeds ok. I believe Glock is a very good design and works every time. I have carried a Glock on duty for fifteen years and it worked every time. I have owned a Glock 35 with an aftermarket barrel of high quality and had feed problems with reloaded brass shot out of a Glock factory barrel. The only way to fix this is to use a sizing die that completely sizes the brass which mean the brass has to pass through a sizing die so that the area near the web is also sized. This is not possible on a conventional sizing die. It must be one of the pass through dies.

Knowing this problem, it is easy to see where the brass buldge is located and how it could cause serious problems.

 

[Ruber]

Referring to these...

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtop ... ht=#904433

 

[Yosemite Sam]

Ruber,

Thanks for the informative post. Interesting about the lost & found Glock. I keep hearing great things about their durability.

So I'll risk posing a dangerous question:

I'm now leaning toward the 45 ACP. Which Glock models are considered best in that caliber? I want to avoid anything "early" enough that it may have been built on a 9mm platform. If I buy a 45, it's be a gun that started out to be a 45 from the ground up.

I'm not Ruber, but know a couple of things about Glocks.

The Glock .45 ACP models are the 21 (full size), 30 (compact), and 36 (subcompact). The .45 models have always been .45 guns; They start with a wider frame than the smaller calibers (except for the G36 - more on that later). Both the 21 and 30 use double stack mags, creating a somewhat wide grip that some people have issues with.

I've owned all three models, and still own a G30. I'd still own the other two if I liked polymer pistols more. I never had a problem with any of them.

Some folks had issues with the G36 when it first came out, about 10 years ago. Mine was of that vintage and was flawless. Of course, this being the Internet, there's no shortage of posts you'll be able to dig up telling you how much the G36 sucks, is Glock's poorest design (right behind any .40 cal model - in these people's minds), blah, blah, blah. Like any gun, you can find negative comments about it. I will say that with its light weight it can be a handful to shoot. Unlike the other .45 ACP Glock models this is a single stack, holds 6-7 rounds, and is as thin as a Glock 17 or 19 (9mm model). It has a commensurately thin grip, and mag adapters are available to increase the capacity by one or two. I found that with a +1 extension the gun became as tall as a full size G17, so I traded it for one and ended up with a 17 round 9mm instead of a 7 round .45 in about the same size package.

You can't get a much smaller .45 ACP package than the G36. However, I find the added .15" or so width of the G30 isn't any harder to conceal, so I now carry one of those with a 10 round mag. It is also a considerable softer shooting gun than the G36, allowing faster followup shots.

The G21 is of course the softest shooting of all, and mine was a -C (compensated) model which reduces recoil even further. It's a big gun though, many people's idea of about the largest gun you would carry within reason, and at that as a side arm, not necessarily a concealed weapon. There are better choices for that.

And if you ever want to know what kind of treatment a Glock can withstand, take a look here.

-- Sam

 

[Ruber]

Soldernut, sorry I glanced past your post and thanks Sam for the answer. I'm in the airport on my Trimble, I'll look over the post better when I get to a full screen computer...

I'm probably a bad person to answer this since I prefer the single stack .45s better and really like the myriads of 1911 types out there. after that, I really like the HK!!!

Enjoy!

 

[bub]

soldernut, the .45 Glocks are, IMHO, simply THE BEST, BAR NONE self defense pistol ever made, with the 9mm right behind and only behind because of the caliber.

I have a Glock 21 that I bought brand new in 1992 or 1993. I have over 30,000 rds through it with NO (as in 0, none, nada, zilch) malfunctions that couldn't be traced to some of my reloads that I didn't size properly. They just plain WORK and keep working. And, of course, the .45 caliber is just the icing on the cake. I carry mine on duty at the PD and have since right after I bought it. The 9mm versions are just as good.

The only real drawback to the .45 Glocks is that the grips are BIG! Even with the SF versions (short frame), they are still pretty big. A lot of people I have let try my G21 can't shoot it very well because it is so big. I have large hands and it's almost too big for me.

The G21, being a full-sized gun, also doesn't conceal worth a crap, unless you go to some lengths to do so. I've heard it compared to trying to conceal a box of Wheaties in your pants and that's not too far from the truth. It can be done, but takes some real effort. The G30 will conceal better, having a shorter grip and barrel, but is just as wide as the G21. The G36, being a single stack magazine and being thinner than the G21 or G30, should conceal even better. Since I wear mine open while on duty, concealability isn't a real big concern for me, anyway.

Yosemite Sam is also exactly right that the .45 and 10mm Glocks were designed that way from the start, not just 9mm models bored out to .45. If you ever get a chance, compare a 9mm/.40/.357 Glock to a 10mm/.45 Glock. The size increase is really evident. They were designed from the ground up to be a 10mm/.45 gun.

Good luck and let us know what you decide on.

Bub

 

[soldernut]

Sam, Bub, Ruber,

Thanks for your thoughtful replies.

This (and other recent) threads of mine started out looking for info about 40 cal pistols. All the wonderful feedack has caused me to rethink that. I'm now leaning strongly toward a 45 ACP or (am I crazy?) a 10mm.

The 10mm, unpopular though it is, seems to have fantastic potential. From a cursory glance through my reloading manuals, it looks like it can be loaded to emulate a 45 (slow but heavy bullet), or a 357 Mag (lighter bullet, fantastic velocities).

I spotted a couple of 10mm pistols at a local store last week (both Glocks), and I have to admit, there's a certain temptation.

I reload, so the dearth of readily available factory ammo doesn't much bother me. As long as I can get brass, I'm all set. (Bullets are same as for 40 cal)

Neither my wife nor I have any trouble handling "full house" 357 loads, and she's shooting a "snubby" (SP 101 3").

The 10mm is looking kind of good.

Opinions/experience?

Thanks all!

 

[Ruber]

OK, I'm on my laptop and am able to read it through. You've got all good choices there. For me the Glock has always been a defensive pistol and the 40 a defensive round with the 10mm having a bit more diversity having some good hunting application and is a great cartridge in its own right. That's where my SHTF gun is a Glock 22, even though it does not make it to the range as frequently as it should, it ain't that pretty, it just gets the job done.

The .45 and .357, while in my opinion are not any easier to load, are certainly more fun to load than the others just based on the amount of data and supplies out there and the flexibility of the cartridges (discussed ad infinitum in the other posts).

Robert Kolesar has an artical in this month's G&A that I picked up at the airport on the "Handgunner's Battery" and he includes the .22LR, 9mm Parabellum, .357 Magnum and .45 ACP and there is some merit to his article. I have a range bag that currently holds four fun and compact options, some ammo, ears and eyes and is ready to go to the range when I am. It currently has a Single Six, a Browning HP in 9mm, a GP100 and a 1911. To me, those are all versitile and fun to shoot 8) .

I guess what I'm saying, is that all the cartridges you mention are great, but I'd be hard pressed to give up a 45.

Hope we didn't muddy up the waters too much... :wink:

 

[Yosemite Sam]

I would heartily concur with Ruber. I have nothing against the 10mm (never shot one, and I'd probably like it in a range gun), but have similar thoughts to the above about common calibers. Additionally, echoing my previous comments in your .40 S&W thread, I'd worry more about over-penetration with the 10mm than just about any other semi-auto caliber. I will say that people who like it really seem to like it, though.

One other thing to think about in your quest: Double taps, aka "controlled pairs". In defensive scenarios it is generally considered the best practice to get at least two hits center-of-mass within a couple of seconds. This tends to induce shock and cause any attack to cease forthwith, despite all the hooey about "one shot stop" effectiveness. A strong argument can be made to go with a gun and caliber combination that will allow you to do accurate double taps, regardless of the caliber used (OK, .380 and up...). If that gun is a 9mm you might be better off with that than a .45 or 10mm that takes you longer to get back on target.

One last piece of general advice: It is much easier to get parts and accessories, as well as aftermarket support, for common, popular designs and models than it is new or oddball guns. This can affect your enjoyment of a particular gun quite a bit. You find what you think is a great "sleeper" model but then discover that nobody makes a holster for it, mags are $50 and are only available on a limited basis (hello Walther PPS), you can't even get springs for it from Brownells, and the stock sights suck but no one makes a replacement that fits. Make of that what you will, but I would do some research into this kind of background stuff with whatever gun you choose. (Big hint: This is one reason I like Glocks. No, they're not pretty or fancy, but nobody knocks their utility value or commodity nature.)

-- Sam

 

[comanche]

10mm = 200gr. lead @ 1200fps 8)

 

[skip]

not to highjack the thread...but since we are Glocking about...what are some opinions on the model 23 for ccw...I have never carried IWB but have thought giving it a try..wouldn't you have to buy your pants a size larger (dumb question?)..I would think the model 23 would be good for getting the 9mm barrel to shoots 9s...do you have to change the spring as well...? I carry a model 17 and a 1911 which are large guns, I know I print... any thoughts or suggestions..

 

[glockmutt]

I really think the 19/23 series are ideal for CCW. This is my personal G23 I often carry along with my Keltec .380.

 

[skip]

On the Model 23 there are I think 3 different mag. capacities..10,13 and 15..is there any difference in the size of the gun and if not when why the difference..?

 

[glockmutt]

10 rd mags go back to the period of the assault weapon ban, which is now over. (Fingers-crossed) Standard capacity for the 23 is the 13 rd mag, or with one up the pipe yo can squeeze in 14. The 15 rounder is probably the standard mag for the G-22. You can always use them in the G-23 they'll just stick out, or you can get the mag adapters from A&G?? and it will make the part sticking out look just like an extension of the grip. Another option is a +2 base pad on a standard mag. I would probably use a 15rd mag spring to ensure proper tension. I have five 13rd mags for my piece. I just load that number and leave it at that. I regularly rotate mags and I don't max load them (13+1) for carry so not to overstress the springs. If you have to carry 10 rounders because of politics in your area, then do so. Adding things to a mag to increase capacity just provides additional opportunity for something to go wrong when you really need them. Here's a video clip I put up on YouTube. It's long, but at 3:28 you can see me pushing a +2 base pad off a G-21 mag. Base pad, bullets, spring and all dropped out on the ground. I took them all off after that day....LOL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mRivqW_SUc

 

[bub]

Glockmutt, +whatever on the mag extenders. We had a guy at the PD I work for that used to carry a G17 with a +2 extender in his in-gun mag. All well and good, until the day he needed to bail out of the car to chase someone and hit the extender on the door frame. Extender and spring shot off to parts unknown and bullets all fell out of the now-baseplate-less mag as he ran. Since he didn't need the gun, in retrospect, it's now kinda funny. Wouldn't have been funny, though, if he would have needed the gun. Now, extended baseplates are a definite no-no at the PD on ANY gun.

Bub

 

[skip]

Thnx...no politics in my area...Alaska is very gun friendly...ever thought about getting a 9mm barrel and mag for your 23...I'm wondering if that converson needs a recoil spring as well...?

 

[soldernut]

From The People's Republik of Kalifornika:

The "assault weapon" ban may be over in the Free States, but not here. Magazine capacity is still a max of 10 rounds - all calibers. There may be an exemption for police agencies - I don't know about that.

I quoted "assault weapon" because the guns in question were never in the same class as the real deal - guns capable of full-auto fire. They just "looked" similar.

But here's my pet peeve about the deal: At the end of our Revolutionary War, many of our soldiers were sent home with the "assault weapon" of the day. Many civilians already owned superior weapons, like the Kentucky Long Rifle.

I believe it was our founders' intention that civilians have the same level of "firepower" as the average infantryman.

I do not mind that police, today, have full-auto M-16s in the trunks of their cruisers, or that swat teams have MP5s. Lord knows, I want them armed as well as the bad guys. But I think law-abiding citizens should have access to the same weapons. It would help maintain the balance the founders intended. And, during periods of civil unrest (the Rodney King riots, say) it would help law-abiding citizens to assist the police.

 

[skip]

gun laws is an oxymoron...only law abideing people follow the laws...they disarm the citizens while the lawless ingore them...California disarms the people that it should be arming...

 

[glockmutt]

The 19/23 models both use the same recoil spring, so no problem there. Lonewolf makes a 40S&W to 9mm conversion narrel and I've heard some comments about them working okay. Never had the desire to do it myself. I also possess a G-17 so there's no solution looking for a problem for me.

 

[soldernut]

skip:

So true and obvious.I don't see what's so hard for people to understand.