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radicalrod
Hunter
NO 1911's were made without a serial number...it has been removed....RR
Snake45 said:
actually the dealer can just write nsn-no serial number in the book and be perfectly legal
yes, there were quite a few , years ago, that were WWI era , Remington UMC and had NO serial numbers, these were known as "lunch box" specials and as such were known by BATF... when we had the shops, if we had to put a serial number on any frame as such we contacted BATF and they would assign a set of numbers to the gun.........as noted above, there are others noted , WWII contract guns, and the "parts" would be assembled and no numbers were ever assigned, knew a guy who was issued one such gun while he was in Viet Nam, knowing this anomoly he had contacted us, he used to work with us in our first shop, and had asked.........alas, he turned it back in, issued another.......oh well, heck, back in the old days, guys would grind off the "US Property" logos on the side of the frames, on "bring homes"....... :roll:
it is when you see any "obliteration, alteration, grinding or removal" of any serial number , THAT is a "no - no", and the numbers can be 'raised" if found to be used in a crime, it is "contraband"...will stay with BATF
If in ANY doubt, just stay away from this sort of thing, not worth the hassle........ 8) :wink:
it is when you see any "obliteration, alteration, grinding or removal" of any serial number , THAT is a "no - no", and the numbers can be 'raised" if found to be used in a crime, it is "contraband"...will stay with BATF
If in ANY doubt, just stay away from this sort of thing, not worth the hassle........ 8) :wink:
radicalrod
Hunter
Well I guess the guys that inspected these and stamped their initials on them missed the fact that they didn't have a serial number.....
Even the trials pistols were serialized.....I held 136 at the last OGCA show....
When one went through rehab at the arsenal if the serial number had been obliterated they put a new one on starting with an X...YMMV....RR
Here is a bad picture of COLT 1911 serial 136 trials pistol also several of the SAVAGE trials pistols also with serial numbers.....
Even the trials pistols were serialized.....I held 136 at the last OGCA show....
When one went through rehab at the arsenal if the serial number had been obliterated they put a new one on starting with an X...YMMV....RR
Here is a bad picture of COLT 1911 serial 136 trials pistol also several of the SAVAGE trials pistols also with serial numbers.....
hittman said:
this only applies to a gun that did not have an SN originally. I have no idea if RR is correct that all 1911's by any mfg were always serialized but info on the 1911 forum indicates ALL have SN's
radicalrod
Hunter
hittman said:
NO COLT 1911 left the factory without a serial number......
Heck they even serialized the matching slide until late in production....
How do you think CLAWSON was able to do his research........
So you really believe that the factory let guys walk off with "LUNCH BOX GUNS".....
Have you ever seen a RUGER "LUNCH BOX GUN".....
Instead of saying what it really is people just say it is a "LUNCH BOX GUN" instead of a stolen gun......
Sure pre 1968 some guns were made without serial numbers BUT the COLT 1911 was NOT one of them.....RR
The OP didn't say it was a Colt.........he simply said 1911. And as we know, they were made by Colt, Remington Rand and Springfield for military use. I myself have owned two Remington's with no serial number and they had NOT been removed. They simply didn't have any
radicalrod
Hunter
Don't forget NORTH AMERICAN ARMS....I held serial # 5 in my hands this weekend...shown in CLAWSON's BOOK.....
This is one of about 200 made for WWI in Canada....we cancelled the contract because the war ended before they could begin full production....
So you really believe the US military bought non serialized weapons.....
How did they keep track of them in their records.....
I guess they just said we have 50 45's in the locker.....
All manufacturers of the 1911 model had serial numbers.....
The government actually assigned the different manufacturers their own blocks of serial numbers....get a copy of CLAWSON book....
Hell the first revolvers were all serialized back in Custars time.....
You guys can keep telling yourself what ever you want.....it won't make it so......RR
This is one of about 200 made for WWI in Canada....we cancelled the contract because the war ended before they could begin full production....
So you really believe the US military bought non serialized weapons.....
How did they keep track of them in their records.....
I guess they just said we have 50 45's in the locker.....
All manufacturers of the 1911 model had serial numbers.....
The government actually assigned the different manufacturers their own blocks of serial numbers....get a copy of CLAWSON book....
Hell the first revolvers were all serialized back in Custars time.....
You guys can keep telling yourself what ever you want.....it won't make it so......RR
protoolman
Service-Sixer
I have heard reference to lunch box guns for years. Including 1911s. Kel Tec actually had an employee convicted a few years back for making and stealing non serialized guns . Im sure it was more common in earlier less regulated days. Ruger lunchbox guns? I am almost 100 percent sure they exist but then they would be illegal so they would be impossible to.document.
This thread piqued my interest so I've been googling. It seems clear that there are MANY 1911's without SN and never had them. Consensus is that these are "lunch box guns" basically stolen from the factory in parts or partial assemblies then reassembled. There was a note of a 2013 American Rifleman article showing one owned by a service man pasted next... A legal 1911A1 with no serial number?
Page 44 of the February 2013 American Rifleman
"Speaking of a 1911A1 used by "Red Mike" Edson USMC in Nicaragua.
"Research is ongoing to discover why Edson's pistol was manufactured without a seria number."
Maybe there's hope for some of the 1911 types that have no serial number. "
I have not seen anything definitive if these lunch box guns are legal. By age SN's were not required for legally manufactured guns prior to 1968. These meet the age but clearly seem to be acquired illegally originally
Page 44 of the February 2013 American Rifleman
"Speaking of a 1911A1 used by "Red Mike" Edson USMC in Nicaragua.
"Research is ongoing to discover why Edson's pistol was manufactured without a seria number."
Maybe there's hope for some of the 1911 types that have no serial number. "
I have not seen anything definitive if these lunch box guns are legal. By age SN's were not required for legally manufactured guns prior to 1968. These meet the age but clearly seem to be acquired illegally originally
radicalrod
Hunter
The military did buy unnumbered frames to use as replacement frames in the arsenals.....
They would then be stamped with an X followed by 4 digits....
Why go to this bother if non serialized guns were allowed to be issued.....
Next March stop by the OGCA and I will introduce you guys to a few 1911 gurus.....
I just sit and listen to them explain these things.....RR
They would then be stamped with an X followed by 4 digits....
Why go to this bother if non serialized guns were allowed to be issued.....
Next March stop by the OGCA and I will introduce you guys to a few 1911 gurus.....
I just sit and listen to them explain these things.....RR
protoolman
Service-Sixer
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=165622&page=2
Well if the link works here are some pics of one. Although I see they may have decided this one was ground off?
Well if the link works here are some pics of one. Although I see they may have decided this one was ground off?
radicalrod
Hunter
protoolman said:
Well if you read the thread they come to the conclusion that the serial number has been removed.....
keep looking :lol: :lol: :lol: RR
You can provide all the documentation and stories you want. I know what I have seen and also owned. Not hard to tell if a number has been taken off a gun. Now, HOW they got out, who knows, but apparently they did some way or another.
The two I had, I bought as a pair. One was fair condition, the other a basket case. Guy I bought them from, said they were his grandfathers. I had no use for them and moved them on to a guy who still has them. He is a fairly well known collector and firearms appraiser in this part of the country. He also says they are legit............that's all I know
Now whether they are "stolen" or if they are "lunchbox" guns or whatever, there would be no way of knowing. Millions of these pistols were made and I would imagine in the early 1900s that security measures were likely not all that great. So to claim there is "no way" there are guns with no numbers would be pretty serious stretch
The two I had, I bought as a pair. One was fair condition, the other a basket case. Guy I bought them from, said they were his grandfathers. I had no use for them and moved them on to a guy who still has them. He is a fairly well known collector and firearms appraiser in this part of the country. He also says they are legit............that's all I know
Now whether they are "stolen" or if they are "lunchbox" guns or whatever, there would be no way of knowing. Millions of these pistols were made and I would imagine in the early 1900s that security measures were likely not all that great. So to claim there is "no way" there are guns with no numbers would be pretty serious stretch
RR, you should really look into what is out there, and has happened over the years, pay attention to what you read, YES, there are 1911 s out there, NO serial numbers, this is a fact, , BATF knows all about it...there is as I noted in my reply above, a big difference from a gun or frame part that NEVER was stamped with a serial number, versus one that had it "obliterated, altered, deleted ( ground out) " which is illegal.......easy enough to spot any gun frame ,especially on a 1911 or type, that has the numbers "removed" and yes, acid can raise and tell what is under neath,,,unless ones grinds it all out, rewelds, and re heat treats to completely change the molecular structure of the metal below the surface, your average "bad guy " (perp) is NOT going through all that trouble, YES< the re are "fakers" out there in the gun community, and in FACT I was on the board of directors at OGCA when we threw one of them out of the club for doing just that, on various military arms and in FACT ,one of them was a Remington 1911 UMC that had NO serial number on it from its "build" at the factory till this person "added" a number on his own..........how well I now what any author has to go through , to research, I have , over the years aided some authors in their "research" and write their books, I knew Mr Clawson, for many years, even before he wrote his book, which was published in 1990, 1991 and we go back to the late 60's and before you even thought about getting into Colts............many of my friends Colts, are in fact, pictured in Mr Clawsons book..............
radicalrod
Hunter
Well if it came from the military it had a serial number stamped on it.....
have you ever seen anything military without a number painted or stamped on it....
Dan, does Mr clawson have a chapter in his books about the non serialized USGI 1911's ????
You guys make it sound like these non serialized USGI 1911's are everywhere.......
Most collectors wouldn't touch one if you paid them too......
Did you read the link that PROTOOL MAN posted....it sure looks like it came with no numbers... opps yup the number was skillfully removed the experts conclude....
maybe all these non numbered 1911 were put togethers with COLT or other left over parts on an non numbered aftermarket frame,.....
no way to know who made it but the slide says COLT so it must be a COLT....
The Military had inspectors at every 1911 manufacturing factory who stamped every gun....this was a very prestigious job....I am sure they just let guns slip by with no serial number....
I know I can't change your thoughts but believe me you haven't changed mine either....YMMV.....RR
have you ever seen anything military without a number painted or stamped on it....
Dan, does Mr clawson have a chapter in his books about the non serialized USGI 1911's ????
You guys make it sound like these non serialized USGI 1911's are everywhere.......
Most collectors wouldn't touch one if you paid them too......
Did you read the link that PROTOOL MAN posted....it sure looks like it came with no numbers... opps yup the number was skillfully removed the experts conclude....
maybe all these non numbered 1911 were put togethers with COLT or other left over parts on an non numbered aftermarket frame,.....
no way to know who made it but the slide says COLT so it must be a COLT....
The Military had inspectors at every 1911 manufacturing factory who stamped every gun....this was a very prestigious job....I am sure they just let guns slip by with no serial number....
I know I can't change your thoughts but believe me you haven't changed mine either....YMMV.....RR
Does anybody know if these so called lunch box guns are legal to own with no serial number?
OP
golferboy426 said:
I thought I covered it in my opening post. And lunch box guns is exactly what the BATF calls them. The BATF (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms) said this gun was not illegal.
I also said in my opening post that these un-numbered guns were new to me. That's why I started the thread.
There are many opposite opinions about this. My google search reveals this discussion has happened many times, and although many folks claim these guns do exist, just as many folks claim there's no way they can exist.
I would not be comfortable owning such a gun, as there are still too many questions and scenarios unresolved. We do have the letter from the BATF saying these guns are not illegal, but the letter is from an individual agent. The next agent may not agree with the opinion, and a person could be in hot water. I do not put the BATF, or any other police agency above entrapment.
WAYNO.
Wayno, I too said so in my first reply also, which I may nay add, Mr Clawson does mention this on Pg 84 of his book .under 'Replacement Pistols " and is the oly time he refers also to "lunch box guns", thats why I said to read and pay attention them, ,duh, BATF knows all about that sort of thing...........'gee wonder HOW my friend was issued one when he was in Viet Nam ???
and that too was a FACT.................when I was with some of the armorers from various branches of the military , when I was working on commercial row at Camp Perry, early 70's and they too saw and had some frames that did NOT have serial numbers, that they took off of guns .........again please READ about the Remington UMC guns, thats the LAST I am going to say on this one, been there, done that.... 8)
Back to Rugers....................... :wink:
(next thing , someone will say I know nothing about S&W boxes............) :roll:
and that too was a FACT.................when I was with some of the armorers from various branches of the military , when I was working on commercial row at Camp Perry, early 70's and they too saw and had some frames that did NOT have serial numbers, that they took off of guns .........again please READ about the Remington UMC guns, thats the LAST I am going to say on this one, been there, done that.... 8)
Back to Rugers....................... :wink:
(next thing , someone will say I know nothing about S&W boxes............) :roll:
Owning and/or registering a 1911 with no numbers, is the same as registering any other older weapon that has no number. In the box on the paperwork where it says "serial number", the box is marked "no number" and you go on your merry way. I have bought several older weapons from GB that had to go through an FFL and several had no numbers. Never had the paperwork even held up, much less denied. Depending on the state where you are, buy it from an individual and it is a total non issue
DA_TriggR4Ruger
Hunter
A lot of 1911s and old guns have no serial number. It's a non-issue, weather transferred "on the books" or face to face. Either way, no big deal.
OP
It continues to be interesting, however, that Army Ordnance proof marks would be placed on a gun before it had a serial number.
WAYNO.
WAYNO.
radicalrod
Hunter
Dan, no one said you don't know anything....you just don't know everything...nor do I.....
All I am saying is NONE of the manufacturers of the MODEL 1911 sent them out with NO serial number....
Are there 1911's with no numbers....YES....but not strait from the factories....they are either stolen by workers or modified outside the factories.....
It is just an easy out to say "LUNCH BOX" and the BATF has bigger fish to fry than chase down a 100 year old gun missing it's numbers....
Let's just say we agree that we disagree :lol: :lol: :lol: RR
All I am saying is NONE of the manufacturers of the MODEL 1911 sent them out with NO serial number....
Are there 1911's with no numbers....YES....but not strait from the factories....they are either stolen by workers or modified outside the factories.....
It is just an easy out to say "LUNCH BOX" and the BATF has bigger fish to fry than chase down a 100 year old gun missing it's numbers....
Let's just say we agree that we disagree :lol: :lol: :lol: RR
radicalrod
Hunter
cas said:
So we have that many thieves in the military and factories.....makes me sad...RR
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