conflicting reload data?

[jpb in me]

Am just getting into reloading. Haven't actually reloaded any yet, just reading up on info thats out there. I bought a Lyman reloading book 46th edition copyright 1982. I was comparing the load data from the book with an online loading sight and noticed a vast difference between the velocity of the two using the same bullet and the same powder. Is my book outdated? Which data should I use to keep my reloads safe to shoot?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Digger]

Did you check what the test barrel or firearms was for both load sources?

You will find a lot of variation between load books in the charge weight, pressures, and velocities for each caliber. It can be quite unnerving when starting. Manual A will tell you that 65 grains of whatever is the max load for X, Y, or Z bullet in a caliber, but Manual B lists 64.5 as the starting load and offers a max load of 72 grains. Someone with a bit more knowledge than I might come along and explain why that is, although I am not sure that I've ever gotten an explanation that really satisfied me.

The best thing to do when working up new loads is to consult at least three sources and kind of find the "average" for velocities, charge weights, and pressures. Sometimes I eyeball this, sometimes I do the math. Then I reduce my starting load by 10% from the "average" and work up in 1/2 grain increments until I find something I am reasonably happy with. Its what works for me, and keeps me reasonably confident of losing any extremities.

Then you can start messing with tenths of grains and overall length.

 

[Cherokee]

What Digger said. Some manual producers use actual firearms, some test barrels, or fixtures, barrel lengths can be different, chronograph screen spacing can be different, powder lot differences, etc. Always start low and work up to what works in your gun(s).

 

[jpb in me]

Well the problem I'm running into is that it appears from the online source that the loads in my lyman book would be in the danger zone and over on some of the charges they list. Could it be posible that my book would be that far off? There is also a warning about not starting too low or you might run into the problem of a bullet stuck in the barrel which would be quite dangerous if it wasn't noticed before shooting the next round. BTW I'm going to be loading 44 mag for a Ruger SBH 5 1/2 barrel. I have not yet purchased my powder or bullets yet till I decide on what will work best.

 

[Ruber]

Are they the exact same bullets (manufacturer, construction, style)? Was the online data from a manufacturer's website (e.g. Hodgdon, etc.)?

Many of the manuals have their "style", some can be very conservative while others tend to run the other end of the spectrum. Lyman is a good manual and tends to be fairly conservative. I also like Hornady's manual, but they are an example of one that runs a bit at the upper end. Both do their testing, one just opens up the throttle a little more...

Had a discussion a while back about changing components, but through the whole thread, this topic was also discussed (the starting load for one combination in one manual was higher than the max load for the same combination in the other manual), might want to check it out...

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtop ... highlight=

 

[Shoot44]

There is also a warning about not starting too low or you might run into the problem of a bullet stuck in the barrel which would be quite dangerous if it wasn't noticed before shooting the next round. BTW I'm going to be loading 44 mag for a Ruger SBH 5 1/2 barrel. I have not yet purchased my powder or bullets yet till I decide on what will work best.

I had the same fear - i.e. about too low of a load and a stuck bullet. So I started low anyway, (but NOT with H110; that's a different problem!), and made myself a short piece of wooden dowel, just long enough to reach from the muzzle to the firing pin. After each shot with the real low loads, I would stop, insert the dowel, and make SURE that the barrel was clear. Sounds a bit over-cautious to me now, but I started my learning curve VERY, VERY carefully. So far, it has served me well, as all my guns are still in one piece.... :D

Just be careful, and NOT in a hurry, and you will do fine. And do NOT load heavier than the manuals tell you to!

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Well the problem I'm running into is that it appears from the online source that the loads in my lyman book would be in the danger zone and over on some of the charges they list. .... BTW I'm going to be loading 44 mag for a Ruger SBH 5 1/2 barrel. I have not yet purchased my powder or bullets yet till I decide on what will work best.

The online data is likely more up to date and accurate and takes into consideration some of the problems with older measurement techniques. ( CUP vs PSI) Older data was often very "hot" and didn't leave much room for error. If you look at the actual pressure figures the new data is usually making a Max pressure well below the SAAMI Max. For safety reasons the powder companies have backed-off most of their loads.

The 44mag is one of the most popular rounds for handloaders. Pick your components and data and just run it by the forum here. We won't steer you wrong. :D

...Jimbo

 

[Rick Courtright]

Well the problem I'm running into is that it appears from the online source that the loads in my lyman book would be in the danger zone and over on some of the charges they list. Could it be posible that my book would be that far off?

Hi,

Definitely possible!

Many things have changed in nearly 30 years. Components DO change, including some powders. So what WAS a safe load at the time, w/ the components available then, could be over the line today.

More likely, what you're seeing is improved testing procedures. The methods used 20, 30 or more years ago were generally not as accurate as the current methods. So what "seemed" like a safe load under an earlier testing protocol may look "bad" using today's. And, in a few cases, SAAMI specs on what's "safe" have been downgraded as so many new guns aren't as "overbuilt" as the originals in a couple of given calibers (.357 Mags being a prime example.)

When I got started, someone suggested I use recipes that are "date appropriate" for my components. In other words, if I HAVE 30 year old components, that 30 yr old book might work fine. But when I buy new components, I find "updating" my library is a good idea.

Which is the long way around the barn of saying "READ the old books, HEED the new ones!"

Rick C

 

[jpb in me]

I think I'm going to get myself a newer loading book. The on I have for starters doesn't list many of the powders that we see on the shelves today. I think Jimbo hit the nail on the head. My Lyman book is showing very hot loads compared to the online ones. Due to potential lawsuits so prevalent in todays world who can blame them for backing down on the powder. If it wasn't for this forum I don't think I would even attempt this. You guys are great and know your stuff. In the event that I do blow off a finger you guys will come together and find me another one....right?

 

[jpb in me]

Rick what you say makes sense. My Ruger SBH is tough, that I'm sure of, and that alone gives me some peace of mind. There are some other manufacturers that I know would make me uncomfortable shooting hot loads.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

In the popular Speer #13 (comes with RCBS reloading kits) there's a load for .45 Colt listed with a 250gr lead bullet and 9.5gr of Unique. Most people will tell you this would not be safe in an old Colt SAA, and they're probably right. On the next page there's a 255gr load with a max of 8.5gr, or there abouts. The only difference is 5gr of bullet weight, and the fact that one is swaged lead and the other cast.

All sorts of stuff out there, and it always pays to play it safe. I've gone below minimum on a couple of loads, and never had a stuck bullet problem. Unburnt powder in the case and badly sooted brass from not sealing the chamber, yes. But the bullets not only made it out of the barrel, but were still fairly accurate.

Be aware that there are certain powders like H110 where they specifically warn NOT to go below min.

-- Sam

 

[jpb in me]

Well had the day off and got my reload table set up today. Also a picture of the old pacific press I picked up for $40. I have spent a total of $91 so far and am only missing the dies and a shell holder for my lee primer tool. Picked up a new in the box Lee scale for $10 on ebay. Bought shell holders, case deburer and hand primer tool used this weekend at a gun show. Am anxious to start reloading.

 

[Shoot44]

Now wait just a minute here..... if you are going to be THAT NEAT, then you are not in my league at all! :o

Seriously, looks like a nice, convenient set-up. Congratulations!

 

[jpb in me]

Shoot44 for heavens sake give me a chance. I haven't started reloading yet!
:) :)

 

[Yosemite Sam]

I long to have a setup even that nice. Right now my press is mounted to a 2x6 that gets clamped to my regular workbench when I'm reloading. In the cold, or hot (depending on season) garage. Someday I'll throw away my home computer and move the reloading gear into what's now my office. ;)

-- Sam

 

[jpb in me]

Sam did you notice my table is a computer table that I modified..hee hee. Wait till the wife see's it.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

A couple of tips on using the Lee Powder Scale. Always make sure it is on a flat and level surface. Zero the scale each time you use it. Practice setting the weight of powder you want. I use a small flashlight to shine right at the little white marks. Use your dipper or powder measure to put an approximate charge into the pan. Put the pan on the scale and check the weight by tapping the beam and make sure the needle swings an equal amount each side of the pointer. Use a small tiny flat shovel, cut from a plastic sheet, to add or subtract powder in the pan. It is easier to add a little powder to bring the weight up than to take powder out of the pan. Always tap the beam to be sure the measurement is accurate.

The Lee funnel is fine for pouring powder into the cases. One size fits all. :D

...Jimbo

 

[slippingaway]

Not a bad setup, mine was that organized before I started too :wink:

You're starting out just fine, enjoy the obsession, it's obviously already got you.

I would be willing to bet you that the first piece of equipment you decide to upgrade when you get the spare cash is that Lee powder scale. Yes, it works. Yes, it can be accurate, as long as it's on a flat, level surface, you zeroed it out properly, and you use the right techniques. No, it's obviously not the easiest or most convenient scale out there. Save up your spare change for a while, and pick up an RCBS 5-0-5 scale. I was forced to upgrade out of necessity (The Lee broke, local shop only had the 5-0-5) and even though it hit me in the wallet a bit, I was in love when I first started using it. So much better than the Lee. Every other piece of Lee equipment I have has been great, but that powder scale was far from perfect.

 

[Shoot44]

One other small, but important thing about that Lee scale; (actually, it applies to ANY balance scale that uses a similar weight adjustment scheme).

If/when you ever have to measure out a powder charge that has a ZERO in the 'ones' column, (like 10.5, 20.3, etc.) be very VERY (!!!) careful!!! It's a long story, and you can read about it either in the latest issue of Shooting Times, where they printed my letter, in the earlier edition - where a guy relates how he blew up a gun, in a post I put up on one of these fora, or in my 'review' of the Lee scale on the MidwayUSA website.

In brief, if you make a mistake, and set the 'ball' on the 'tens' value, and then set the 'slider' on the DECIMAL number instead of the "ONES" number, instead of getting 10.3 grains, you get 13!!! The guy in the mag article did it with a 10.8 grain load. He was using the SAME bullet weight in the SAME gun, and the SAME powder (Titegroup) as I was (!!) I caught my mistake at the 10.3 grain load; my next load was supposed to be 10.8 grains. That was PRECISELY the same weight that he blew up his gun with. I am totally sure that he did the SAME thing I almost did, and loaded 18 grains instead of 10.8. BOOM!

I caught it 'cause I was also using the Lee 'dipper' as a sort of 'backup check'. The dipper that should have had enough in it to weigh 10.3 grains would not balance the scale. Took way more. Finally realized my error. I sweat off a few pounds right after I settled my nerves down and went back to reloading.

Be aware of this possible error! If things seem 'wrong', STOP and check!!

P.S. I now use a digital scale, and check it against the Lee occasionally. I still trust the Lee scale more than any digital one, but the digital is faster.

 

[WESHOOT2]

All manuals are guides only, since your stuff is different from their stuff.
This is exactly why we start low and work up slow.

(Wear yer safety glasses at yer bench; always).

 

[jpb in me]

Shoot 44 that was a great tip and reminder on the scale. I went and got my scale after reading your post and can see how easily that mistake can be made. I hope I never forget it now.
Well I bought the rest of my components today. Picked up some 240 gr SWC lead bullets and some unique powder. Got home and my Lyman book doesn't have that bullet listed.....am delayed once again. One of the drawbacks of living 30 miles from the nearest traffic light and 70 miles from the nearest city.

 

[BrokNAirow]

All manuals are guides only, since your stuff is different from their stuff.
This is exactly why we start low and work up slow.

(Wear yer safety glasses at yer bench; always).

us oldtimers know what we are talking about.....safety..saftey...saftey

U can't be too safe............

I'm Brok :mrgreen: