Buffalo Bore 38 P+ ammo

[Bullsquid]

Well I finally got my .38 LCR to the range today. I wanted to test the BB 158 gr. p+ to see if I any problems with bullet separation from the casing. I fired 4 rounds and checked the un fired cartridge for separation. Low and behold I could see some slight separation. Probably about a eighth of a mm had come loose from the casing. I fired four more rounds with the test bullet in the gun. The bullet had dislodged from the casing to about a quarter mm.

This is unacceptable. I am glad I performed this test as per the manual for the LCR. I figured the gun was to to light for this potent round. I am going to use Speer Gold dot 135 gr. GDHP short barrel ammo for my defense round. I am thinking about trying the BB non P+ a go as well. I just thought I would a report on the BB P+ ammo in the LCR.

One thing about the BB it kicks like a mule in this small gun! Very accurate though.

 

[Boge]

...Low and behold I could see some slight separation. Probably about a eighth of a mm had come loose from the casing. I fired four more rounds with the test bullet in the gun...

Sorry, but I'm calling BS here. I would think that only a horny & lonely widow woman could see something projecting an "eighth of a mm." :roll:

1 millimeter = 0.0393700787 inch. 1/8 of a mm = 0.004921259842525.

Do you work for NASA?

I have fired over 100 of this same rd. and had no problem. Relax.

 

[Bullsquid]

...Low and behold I could see some slight separation. Probably about a eighth of a mm had come loose from the casing. I fired four more rounds with the test bullet in the gun...

Sorry, but I'm calling BS here. I would think that only a horny & lonely widow woman could see something projecting an "eighth of a mm." :roll:

1 millimeter = 0.0393700787 inch. 1/8 of a mm = 0.004921259842525.

Do you work for NASA?

I have fired over 100 of this same rd. and had no problem. Relax.

Just trying to give everyone some idea how much the bullet separated. I guess exact measurements was overkill but just giving the description what I saw. I dont think this is a good thing. I have never fired or seen a round that was starting to remove it self from the casing. Just saying.I did not measure the bullet gap so maybe I was a little Nasa like :wink: In your experience is the OK? I am new to revolvers and heard and read in the manual to check this out. Must be a reason its in there to test your rounds of choice for this. I wonder how far the bullet has to separate for this to be an issue. What consequences are there for bullet separation?

So this will be safe to use BB bore? I am open to comments and suggestions. Sorry for all the questions. Just tying to educate myself with revolvers.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

It is called 'bullet creep' and it happens sometimes when hard kicking ammo with heavy bullets is used in light guns. If the bullets move too much they can lock-up the gun. If consistently after 4 shots the remaining bullet has only moved slightly then there is no problem. For self-defense do not keep loading the same bullets over and over again. Rotate the ammo in the gun. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[Boge]

The best way to check is to measure ctg. OAL before & after. To be sure, this is a helluva hot round and has sticky extraction. To be frank, I also think the Speer 135 gr. +p SB round is far better suited for self defense needs. It is more accurate, kicks less & has a helluva well designed HP for snubbies.

 

[writwing]

...Low and behold I could see some slight separation. Probably about a eighth of a mm had come loose from the casing. I fired four more rounds with the test bullet in the gun...

Sorry, but I'm calling BS here. I would think that only a horny & lonely widow woman could see something projecting an "eighth of a mm." :roll:

1 millimeter = 0.0393700787 inch. 1/8 of a mm = 0.004921259842525.

Do you work for NASA?

I have fired over 100 of this same rd. and had no problem. Relax.

Just trying to give everyone some idea how much the bullet separated. I guess exact measurements was overkill but just giving the description what I saw. I dont think this is a good thing. I have never fired or seen a round that was starting to remove it self from the casing. Just saying.I did not measure the bullet gap so maybe I was a little Nasa like :wink: In your experience is the OK? I am new to revolvers and heard and read in the manual to check this out. Must be a reason its in there to test your rounds of choice for this. I wonder how far the bullet has to separate for this to be an issue. What consequences are there for bullet separation?

So this will be safe to use BB bore? I am open to comments and suggestions. Sorry for all the questions. Just tying to educate myself with revolvers.

How did you determine that the bullet had moved the width of a human hair without measuring?

 

[308longdistance]

Bullsquids question.....

"I wonder how far the bullet has to separate for this to be an issue. What consequences are there for bullet separation?"

The bullet has to separate to the point of protruding past the cylinder face and keeping the cylinder from rotating, locking up the gun.

 

[Bullsquid]

Perhaps I am making this more of issue than it is from the comments. I just don't want a round not firing if by chance I have to engage. It sounds like the BB will be fine. Thanks for the information everyone.

 

[308longdistance]

Perhaps I am making this more of issue than it is from the comments. I just don't want a round not firing if by chance I have to engage. It sounds like the BB will be fine. Thanks for the information everyone.

I think it is a good question. No need to be , if we don't ask how will we ever know.

 

[Tommy Kelly]

That case was probably 1/10th of a mm shorter and didn't get the same crimp as the rest. Before it would cause any problem a bullet would have to move out over a 1/4" in most guns to bind up the cylinder with a normal bullet seated to the channellure. I shoot some ammo that this may be a problem in like my 500S&W with the 700 gr ranger rick bullets the cylinder is filled to almost flush with bullets seated to the channellure. Loaded with these the gun looks like a cap gun from the front with the bullets almost flush with the face of the cylinder. If I load normal 350 gr bullets in the cases they are back in the cylinder like normal but the 700 gr wide meplat cast bullets have as much in the case as is sticking out. They make a awesome looking load for a handgun.

 

[WAYNO]

Perhaps I am making this more of issue than it is from the comments. I just don't want a round not firing if by chance I have to engage. It sounds like the BB will be fine. Thanks for the information everyone.

Yours is a legitimate question, and I have personal knowledge of a lightweight gun that did jam itself up when a certain load did jump its crimp. So, it can happen.

With that in mind, bullet movement of such a small amount is likely nothing more than the little bit of tolerance between the crimp and the crimping groove. But...It's always a good idea to watch for any sign of movement, regardless of the load. If movement becomes really obvious, then it would definitely be time to re-evaluate things.

Also, in the scheme of things, a .38+p is still a soft-puffer.

WAYNO.

 

[CraigC]

Sounds like a non-issue.

 

[Frank V]

Bullsquid

I've shot the BB 158gr lead SWC HP non +P & chronographed it. BB claims 850fps bbl length not stated. I chronographed it from a 2" DS & got an honest 876fps. It's my carry load in non +P rated .38s
Just thought you might like to know what it's doing in the non +P load.

I'm another who wouldn't worry about that small ammount of setback. I'd just rotate my ammo & be happy.
Good shooting.
Frank

 

[bearpugh]

i see it as a big issue. bb ammo is loaded to the very max. any change in bullet depth can add pressure, maybe too much. i've never felt confident about this ammo in any alum frame gun. if you need that much more power get a 357. my 2 cents.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

i see it as a big issue. bb ammo is loaded to the very max. any change in bullet depth can add pressure, maybe too much. i've never felt confident about this ammo in any alum frame gun. if you need that much more power get a 357. my 2 cents.

I don't agree at all. There is no way the bullets are going to get set deeper into the case and they should be fine in any 38+P rated gun. 8) 8)

...JImbo

 

[steve b]

The alternative choice is a good one. The 135gr SB Gold Dot is well liked. Maybe easier to re-create at the bench too ? steve b

 

[bearpugh]

i see it as a big issue. bb ammo is loaded to the very max. any change in bullet depth can add pressure, maybe too much. i've never felt confident about this ammo in any alum frame gun. if you need that much more power get a 357. my 2 cents.

I don't agree at all. There is no way the bullets are going to get set deeper into the case and they should be fine in any 38+P rated gun. 8) 8)

...JImbo

doesn't have to go deeper to increase pressure.

 

[pps]

i see it as a big issue. bb ammo is loaded to the very max. any change in bullet depth can add pressure, maybe too much. i've never felt confident about this ammo in any alum frame gun. if you need that much more power get a 357. my 2 cents.

Nonsense. I fire it out of my 340pd all the time. It's good ammunition, and chronographs right at 1000fps out of that 1 7/8" barrel. No problems jumping crimp (can't say the same of Winchester white box) If you don't feel confident about the ammo, that's fine...but it's fine ammo.

Not as consistent on the expansion as the gold dots I have tested in the past (sorry...no pics of that) but the buffalo bore seems to penetrate a bit more. The barns bullets are pretty darn consistent with expansion AND penetration, albeit quite expensive.

 

[bearpugh]

all i'm saying is, if it is jumping the crimp in your gun, i wouldn't use it. i'm intrigued but wary about it in my lcr. called ruger and they didn't give an all clear to use it. basically told me to hope an employee at bb or ruger did they're job that day. lol. doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[pps]

i see it as a big issue. bb ammo is loaded to the very max. any change in bullet depth can add pressure, maybe too much. i've never felt confident about this ammo in any alum frame gun. if you need that much more power get a 357. my 2 cents.

I don't agree at all. There is no way the bullets are going to get set deeper into the case and they should be fine in any 38+P rated gun. 8) 8)

...JImbo

doesn't have to go deeper to increase pressure.

Basic chemistry here P1V1=P2V2 ie if you increase the volume (as happens when the bullet jumps crimp) the pressure from the reaction will be less EVERY TIME. So YES it DOES have to go deeper to increase pressure.

 

[bearpugh]

no. it soesn't. why do you think guys can only decrease loads to a point? pressure. any good reloading manual will teach this. one example given to me was, look at it like the difference between standing in front of a door and pushing it open. now back up 6 ft and create space and run into the door. more pressure.

 

[pps]

no. it soesn't. why do you think guys can only decrease loads to a point? pressure. any good reloading manual will teach this. one example given to me was, look at it like the difference between standing in front of a door and pushing it open. now back up 6 ft and create space and run into the door. more pressure.

LMAO:

With your door "analogy" you are using an example of getting a running start at a door, thus generating MOMENTUM (p=mv) and kinetic energy (ke=1/2mv^2)

Your "analogy" has NO BEARING on how much pressure is generated in a closed volume. AGAIN...the pressure will INCREASE if the bullet is seated deeper, and there will be LESS pressure if the bullet ends up being seated further out.....PERIOD.

The pressure in a closed system where a chemical reaction takes place (SUCH AS A CARTRIDGE) is expressed as p=nRt/volume (p=pressure, n=number of moles of product, t=temperature in Celsius and v=volume R=the gas constant) From this formula, it is clear...if you increase the volume (ie...seat the bullet less deep) you DECREASE the pressure...EVERY TIME.

Jimbo is right, the bullet will pull out of the case from recoil, THEREFORE, the pressure of the cartridge will be LESS than it would be if the bullet had not pulled itself out of the brass.

 

[bearpugh]

then why is it the books advise that the best velocity/ lowest pressure loads are using the powder that most FILLS the case. according to you you should use the least amount of powder creating as much empty space as possible. any reloader will tell you thats untrue.

 

[pps]

then why is it the books advise that the best velocity/ lowest pressure loads are using the powder that most FILLS the case. according to you you should use the least amount of powder creating as much empty space as possible. any reloader will tell you thats untrue.

There you go again. The conversation is about oranges and you are bring up apples. Go to the formula p=nRt/v. We were discussing bullet pull/bullet setback. In the situation where you have a set amount of powder (reactants, if you will) in the case.....you have then had 4 shots fired where the recoil has backed the bullet further out of the case (thus increasing volume) ...there is still the SAME AMOUNT AND TYPE OF POWDER in that case as there was when you started shooting...it's just that now there is more volume within the chamber for the reactants to combust.....therefore, the chamber pressure will be less than if the bullet had not slipped out.

You have not reloaded that case with a different powder between shots. You are looking at the reloading manuals suggestion to use a SLOWER BURNING powder (which fills the case more than a fast burning powder) to keep pressures down. The idea here is that the bullet will be further down the barrel when the reaction hits peak pressure than with a fast powder...thus, there is MORE VOLUME in the combustion area when the reaction hits stride....with that increased volume the pressure is less.

AGAIN....apples to apples comparison here....In the case of the op, the powder/charge weight/temperature are all constant therefore the nRt of the p=nRt/v will factor out...thereby leaving us with the following formula to compare the two situations where a bullet jumps crimp p1v1=p2v2

I've been reloading for more years than I care to admit. Seating the bullet deeper (regardless of what powder you use) will ALWAYS increase pressure.

 

[Rob1109]

i see it as a big issue. bb ammo is loaded to the very max. any change in bullet depth can add pressure, maybe too much. i've never felt confident about this ammo in any alum frame gun. if you need that much more power get a 357. my 2 cents.

Nonsense. I fire it out of my 340pd all the time. It's good ammunition, and chronographs right at 1000fps out of that 1 7/8" barrel. No problems jumping crimp (can't say the same of Winchester white box) If you don't feel confident about the ammo, that's fine...but it's fine ammo.

Not as consistent on the expansion as the gold dots I have tested in the past (sorry...no pics of that) but the buffalo bore seems to penetrate a bit more.

The barns bullets are pretty darn consistent with expansion AND
penetration, albeit quite expensive.

A good test was done on YouTube by TNOUTDOORS9 on the BB through a gel-like media. He has other great videos as well.

 

[pps]

i see it as a big issue. bb ammo is loaded to the very max. any change in bullet depth can add pressure, maybe too much. i've never felt confident about this ammo in any alum frame gun. if you need that much more power get a 357. my 2 cents.

Nonsense. I fire it out of my 340pd all the time. It's good ammunition, and chronographs right at 1000fps out of that 1 7/8" barrel. No problems jumping crimp (can't say the same of Winchester white box) If you don't feel confident about the ammo, that's fine...but it's fine ammo.

Not as consistent on the expansion as the gold dots I have tested in the past (sorry...no pics of that) but the buffalo bore seems to penetrate a bit more.

The barns bullets are pretty darn consistent with expansion AND
penetration, albeit quite expensive.

A good test was done on YouTube by TNOUTDOORS9 on the BB through a gel-like media. He has other great videos as well.

Thanks. I've seen some of his videos. He does nice work. I just use either rubber mulch (since I recycle my lead for bullet casting) or wet news print. Mostly because it's on hand....and FREE.

 

[writwing]

no. it soesn't. why do you think guys can only decrease loads to a point? pressure. any good reloading manual will teach this. one example given to me was, look at it like the difference between standing in front of a door and pushing it open. now back up 6 ft and create space and run into the door. more pressure.

The (air)pressure has not changed. The force has increased. Remember Newton 2 > f=ma.

 

[writwing]

then why is it the books advise that the best velocity/ lowest pressure loads are using the powder that most FILLS the case. according to you you should use the least amount of powder creating as much empty space as possible. any reloader will tell you thats untrue.

There you go again. The conversation is about oranges and you are bring up apples. Go to the formula p=nRt/v. We were discussing bullet pull/bullet setback. In the situation where you have a set amount of powder (reactants, if you will) in the case.....you have then had 4 shots fired where the recoil has backed the bullet further out of the case (thus increasing volume) ...there is still the SAME AMOUNT AND TYPE OF POWDER in that case as there was when you started shooting...it's just that now there is more volume within the chamber for the reactants to combust.....therefore, the chamber pressure will be less than if the bullet had not slipped out.

You have not reloaded that case with a different powder between shots. You are looking at the reloading manuals suggestion to use a SLOWER BURNING powder (which fills the case more than a fast burning powder) to keep pressures down. The idea here is that the bullet will be further down the barrel when the reaction hits peak pressure than with a fast powder...thus, there is MORE VOLUME in the combustion area when the reaction hits stride....with that increased volume the pressure is less.

AGAIN....apples to apples comparison here....In the case of the op, the powder/charge weight/temperature are all constant therefore the nRt of the p=nRt/v will factor out...thereby leaving us with the following formula to compare the two situations where a bullet jumps crimp p1v1=p2v2

I've been reloading for more years than I care to admit. Seating the bullet deeper (regardless of what powder you use) will ALWAYS increase pressure.

Boyles law p1v1=p2v2 is a special case of the ideal gas laws and applies to a vessel in a closed system. So it would not apply here.

In the case of the cartridge, increasing the size of the combustion chamber adds air to the system so Boyle will not apply.

 

[pps]

At the START of the reaction it still applies, until you have to start calculating change in volume with time as the bullet is pushed forward...then the math gets a bit more complex. With a given amount of reactants in the cartridge, with a given bullet weight (mass) the pressure from combustion will always be higher, as the bullet is seated deeper...ie less volume for the same amount of products.