BARREL SWAP

mswill

Bearcat
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
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54
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Texas
Have a Ruger M77R, SN 70-212XX which I believe is a 1970 DOB. I plan on swapping the original barrel (Douglas ?) out with a 1978 vintage barrel (Wilson ?).

Would like to confirm there should be no surprises in doing this swap before I chase down a competent smith.
 
I am not sure anyone could confirm that there will NO surprises here! The premise appears to be a Wilson vs. Douglas issue? Is it for the same caliber? What is wrong with the original barrel?
 
My apologies for the poorly worded question. I've made a simple question confusing.:oops: Are the barrels of a 1970 M77R and a 1978 M77R of the same caliber and length, interchangeable? I feel quite certain they are, just thought it would be prudent to check here first for confirmation.

From reading past posts, I am under the impression the 1970 barrel was made by Douglas and the 1978 by Wilson but that should be irrelevant. I’m assuming the barrels are exactly the same irrespective of the maker.
 
I understand the question now! Without having personally done it, I believe a competent gunsmith could make the swap. He could definitely tell you if he could not. Good Luck!
I think the issue is getting your barrel marking/caliber stamp lined up, extractor cut and headspace.
Picketpin has swapped more Ruger barrels than any one I know of; his opinion and experience would cinch it!
 
I'm sure it's obvious I have no experience with this. Appreciate your comments.
 
It depends on what you mean by SWAP. They may look identical BUT it's highly unlikely it's going to be a matter of simply taking out one barrel and screwing in another. It's probable that the new barrel will not correctly head space without some alteration especially with the roll marks in the correct position. . Usually you end up turning it back a thread or or so to get it right. That also means you have to chase the existing chamber, usually with a finish reamer to get the chamber correct. That's for a smooth barrel with no sights. If it's an RS or ST and the sights need to be correctly lined up in the correct axis and dead nuts on top it gets even harder.
There is no extractor cut to worry about with a 77 but with a #1 you always end up recutting the extractor groove to the correct depth.

Predicated on what's involved in getting the new barrel installed correctly you are probably going to have $150 to $250 into it if done by a competent smith.

The 1970 gun PROBABLY has a Douglas barrel and the 1978 barrel is PROBABLY a Wilson. Sadly there is simply no markings or other way to tell them apart.

I Have a non prefix #1 that shipped in 1975. Is it a Douglas like the non prefix #1 and up through 130 -05xxx or so or is it a Wilson barrel? Was it sitting in repair or warranty? Was it on hand as a barreled action and then finally assembled and shipped. There is simply no way to know for sure. Though we all draw from the inference that based on time frame a Ruger has a barrel from Douglas or Wilson.

All that said. Other than a few early Wilson barrels with really long throats I have nevr been able tell tell the difference when it comes to accuracy.

No idea WHY you are doing this or if you might want to ever change back but "I" always have the serial number engraved on the take off barrel. That way it will in fact simply screw back into the original action and head space correctly. Just a thought.

Good luck, it should work as long as you know what you are getting into. It's probably more accurate to think of it as a barrel "replacement" with a factory barrel than a barrel "SWAP".

The best

Ross
 
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I've made that swap. Flatbolt with a 7Mag barrel swapped out for a warning .300WinMag barrel. Screwed right in, but as PP said it had to be headspaced and also indexed to get the lettering to line up right. All that equates to money spent on gunsmithing.
 
My apologies for the tardy response, simply been busy elsewhere. Thank you for the informative and educational posts. I am considering this barrel replacement as a last resort in efforts to diagnose what I feel is poor accuracy.

The rifle (.243 cal) was acquired used in 1974/75. I would guess I have fired no more than 500 rounds through it over that 38 year period...probably 200 of those this year. In general, I enjoy the challenge of reloading and bench shooting to find the best accuracy possible out of a particular rifle. I have a shooting/reloading partner of like mind with over 30 years experience, so I am comfortable our reloads are as good and safe as we can make them. We are both rather meticulous in this sort of thing.

I feel this rifle should be capable of grouping 3-5 shots around an inch at 100yd. I could be wrong but that just doesn't seem unreasonable. Since February, we have worked with about eight different bullets and six different powder combinations and overall lengths (sorry don‘t have my loading data with me at present). Briefly, the rifle has always shot lighter bullets better than heavy, whether factory or reloads. But it is frustratingly inconsistent. Say a group may measure .5 inch.....and an hour later group 2-3 inch with the exact cartridge. The groups continue to expand the heavier the bullet.

We have tried all the tips we could find on line and here on the forum for possible solutions, but for brevity sake I won’t list them. If you are like me, I would question shooter ability and conditions, but both of us have shot it with similar inconsistent results. The rifle currently carries a new 6x18x44 scope, free-floated barrel, NOT bedded, with a 2.5# trigger pull. The bench is concrete and rock solid facing a tree lined shooting lane out to 350yd....the bench literally 5 steps from the reloading area. I’ve never seen a better set up.

One of my biggest concerns is not knowing the rifles history for the first 4-5 years of its life. It came with reloading dies, so abuse is a consideration....like pushing a bunch of 60 gr bullets at 4000fps. The current plan is to find a competent smith that has a bore scope and knows how to use it. If the original barrel is shot out, I will probably replace the barrel with the on hand spare although I hate messing with originality. But I agree with the overused phrase “only accurate rifles are interesting”. I know the rifle is not a bench gun, but feel it should be more consistent.....I could be wrong.

Sorry for the long winded response, but it’s a long story. And again, thanks for your time and comments.
 
mswill said:
My apologies for the tardy response, simply been busy elsewhere. Thank you for the informative and educational posts. I am considering this barrel replacement as a last resort in efforts to diagnose what I feel is poor accuracy.

The rifle (.243 cal) was acquired used in 1974/75. I would guess I have fired no more than 500 rounds through it over that 38 year period...probably 200 of those this year. In general, I enjoy the challenge of reloading and bench shooting to find the best accuracy possible out of a particular rifle. I have a shooting/reloading partner of like mind with over 30 years experience, so I am comfortable our reloads are as good and safe as we can make them. We are both rather meticulous in this sort of thing.

I feel this rifle should be capable of grouping 3-5 shots around an inch at 100yd. I could be wrong but that just doesn't seem unreasonable. Since February, we have worked with about eight different bullets and six different powder combinations and overall lengths (sorry don‘t have my loading data with me at present). Briefly, the rifle has always shot lighter bullets better than heavy, whether factory or reloads. But it is frustratingly inconsistent. Say a group may measure .5 inch.....and an hour later group 2-3 inch with the exact cartridge. The groups continue to expand the heavier the bullet.

We have tried all the tips we could find on line and here on the forum for possible solutions, but for brevity sake I won’t list them. If you are like me, I would question shooter ability and conditions, but both of us have shot it with similar inconsistent results. The rifle currently carries a new 6x18x44 scope, free-floated barrel, NOT bedded, with a 2.5# trigger pull. The bench is concrete and rock solid facing a tree lined shooting lane out to 350yd....the bench literally 5 steps from the reloading area. I’ve never seen a better set up.

One of my biggest concerns is not knowing the rifles history for the first 4-5 years of its life. It came with reloading dies, so abuse is a consideration....like pushing a bunch of 60 gr bullets at 4000fps. The current plan is to find a competent smith that has a bore scope and knows how to use it. If the original barrel is shot out, I will probably replace the barrel with the on hand spare although I hate messing with originality. But I agree with the overused phrase “only accurate rifles are interesting”. I know the rifle is not a bench gun, but feel it should be more consistent.....I could be wrong.

Sorry for the long winded response, but it’s a long story. And again, thanks for your time and comments.


You may or may not get any improvement with the other barrel you have on hand. I know it will be more expensive, but getting a new barrel contoured the way you want it from Shilen, Lilja, Hart, etc. would all but guarantee better results. They can also check for issues with your action like the bolt face not being true, ensuring full contact with locking lugs, etc. I did this with my old Rem 700 and have been very pleased.

captainkirk
 
Hi I know most guys like to free float thier barrels and I do to but I have had guns that I could not get to shoot good so I tried tip presure and bingo dialed right in just what worked for me
GRAMPS
 
As a GENERAL rule #1s shoot best with a bit for forearm tip pressure.

I own some 77s. I have never had to free float one to get it to shoot and suspect that there is a reason that Ruger ships them from the factory with a bit of a pressure pad at the tip, inside the barrel channel of the forearm.

Just saying

Ross
 
this whole ordeal sounds frustrating to say the least. have you tried shooting the barreled action out of another stock? just curious. if you have and still get similar results then I think you have no other choice but to try a new barrel. the bore scope idea is probably the biggest chance of showing any clues if the issue is with the barrel.
 
As mentioned above, this particular session began last Feb. The barrel was free floated just last Apr/May as one of our investigative efforts. The floating generated no change either way....no better/no worse. And you are perfectly correct, the only wood removal necessary was at the very tip.

A custom barrel is certainly a consideration. While I do not have access to another stock, I do have the spare barrel as mentioned. This barrel was a gift from a very good friend and I know its history. So I guess the next logical and economical step remains to borescope and if some abnormality exists to replace with the spare and give it a whirl. If the scope proves inconclusive, then I'll consider a custom barrel or place the rifle here in the classifieds. If it does show up here for sale, I assure you it will have a link to this thread.

And lastly for picketpin, I'm also working on a #1B (.243 also). While the search continues for its preferred load and setup, I'm not nearly as frustrated with it....yet. So fair warning, I may return whining about another rifle sometime in the future. :)

As always, appreciate your time and comments.
 
MSWILL: Always happy to help. I have a couple 243 "B: non prefixes #1 that shoot sub MOA and one was my rock chuck rifle for about 20 years. Also have a couple of factory 243 "V"s. I've had pretty good luck with #1s in 243 over the years. Keep me posted.

the best

Ross,
 
I just wonder if there isn't a forum member out there that had an extra tang safety stock they could lend you for a week or two. if this was a Mark II short action I would lend you one in a heartbeat for a few weeks.
 
Thank you Jim for the generous thought. We'll see what this bore colonscopy reveals...could take me awile to find the right smith. I'm OK with the existing stock right now. I can always shim up a little forearm pressure if necessary.
 
mswill,

I have never had a Ruger rebarreled, a bolt or single shot version. However I do my own work with that type of thing for what that is worth. For some reason I have a stack of oem takeoffs, that get used around the lathe eventually.

The Rugers that I have; have been rebarreled or are donors are waiting for what caliber they are going to be. I really do not waste time shooting a factory barrel anymore, gotten spoiled by the aftermarket folks' offerings. I change out factory barrels just out of habit. I have no collector type issues to worry about, just like to shoot.

I know that not everyone shares the same outlook. Each has his own.

If the 77 was mine, I would try to figure out if the bore is clean. A bit of Sweets will show color in most instances if copper fouling is present. I do not mix solvents, I always dry out the barrel before using another type of solvent, even Hoppes.

I cannot remember if you swapped scopes or not. I think I would try to listen to the firing pin dry firing to see if it sounds the same each time. Sometimes firing pin stuff develops a burr that gives a bit of hesitation.

The other thing I would do, if the barrel is free floating, is to loosen either of the action screws while holding a finger on the barrel at the forend tip. If you feel movement, then the bedding is suspect to me. Bedding is a foundation if you will, for basic accuracy considerations. The 77 has an angled forward action screw. If the barreled action moves around during firing, then probably will not shoot to the same spot even though the scope says so etc. I like pillar bedding techniques personally. It is interesting to note that some gunsmiths will not true or bed a 77 anymore for their own reasons. In any case, some share the thought that the action should not be under tension(bowing).

I know that an aftermarket barrel is a bit of a chore for most, but after you shoot and clean one, then you will realize what they are. Aftermarket barrels are typically smoother inside, better stress removal techniques.

If you can touch the lands with the olgive of seated bullet(dummy round), then perhaps the barrel has some life yet. If you cannot, then let the borescope tell all.

I cannot think of a much easier job to rebarrel than a 77. Basic 16tpi threads on a inch nominal shank, chamber, and crown. I would think most smiths would think gravy money. Hard to imagine more than a 100 in such, just not much to it. Putting on a preowned barrel, even if you know its history, has about the same costs as a new barrel in labor. Gotta put it in the lathe, move the shoulder, deepen the chamber, and probably for good measure; recrown. If the new barrel has irons on it, then most will charge a bit more for clocking. One good thing perhaps is no extractor slot, much like the old Mauser barrel that way.

Some rechambering jobs vary with smith to smith. A lot will just deepen the chamber the measured amount from depth mic readings off the action and the barrel. However, this has its issues to some, if the chamber reamer neck section is smaller than the existing chamber you will have an artifact there. If the neck is larger, then one thinks of overworking the brass. Some of the smiths will cut the barrel off about the neck length so that a complete new neck is cut into the barrel proper. Like most things, smiths will vary on customer requirements. Cutting the neck distance off takes its toll on wood fit on some barrel tapers.

I do agree that a barrel is a key ingredient in basic repeatable accuracy, but lots of other parameters have to be there as well, such as bedding.

FWIW,

Roof
 
Pardon if this sounds extremely elementary, and certainly not meant to question your knowledge, experience, or meticulous reloading work - but have you cleaned that barrel REALLY well? Layers of powder residue and copper fouling can sure wreak havoc with repeatable accuracy. If you haven't already, certainly worth a try. Cheap fix if it works. :) Might need repeat cleanings with alternate applications of copper solvent and powder solvent. Another cheap fix to try would be recrowning...

Good luck with your project. I agree, only accurate rifles are interesting, and REPEATABLE accuracy is the only kind that matters, right?
 
Very informative post roofinspector. Have tried some of those thoughts and diagnostics, but not all. Will keep them in mind as this little project moves forward.

No offense taken 6GUNSONLY....agree completely. Actually, I've battled the copper fowling possibility on an regular basis. I've used several products, most recently Sweets. I've had the rifle to a gunsmith recently for bore evaluation. He said he did not have his own borescope but could borrow one if needed. Turns out all he did was treat for copper fouling with Sweets. I could still get color traces of varying intensities when I got it back. Not terribly impressed with his efforts. So the search continues for a smith that has a borecope and knows how to use it.

I agree this is a major concern, but I must admit that after so many hours devoted to cleaning, I'm to the point of, "I have to see it to believe it". I do feel it is still at least part of the problem. Depending on scope results, I'll probably start a fresh thread to address that problem, I fear this one is becoming cumbersome for folks.

As always, thanks for the help, I'm feeling guilty taking up so much of everyone's time. :oops:
Mike
 

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