9mm or .40 in a subcompact?

[RaisinRiverRon]

Going to break down and buy a mousegun, 3" bbl., grip you can get two fingers on.
I'm leaning toward the .40, but wondering if I'd be better off with a 9mm for faster recovery between shots.
I generally lean toward bigger is better; .45 Colt revolver, 10mm pistol, .357 5-shot revolver. But I notice my split-times with my .9mm HP are pretty quick.
Any opinions?

 

[Mike J]

My only subcompact is a Kel-Tec P-11. It is a 9mm. It weighs 14 ounces unloaded IIRC. It is snappy enough. I would not like a pistol this size in .40.

FWIW I like .40 in mid-sized or full sized pistols. If there is a rental range near you it might be worth renting a couple of your options & checking it out.

 

[luvmyRugers]

I think I may have said this before on here...Carry what you can shoot / handle best and feel the most comfortable with!! End of story.
Personally, anything that starts with a .4 or larger for me. YMMV
Good luck in your decision.

 

[22/45 Fan]

I have a Kahr PM9 and the recoil with 9 mm +P is more than impressive enough. A .40 in this pistol would be very unpleasant. Modern high performance 9 mm ammo is so effective that insisting a .40 or .45 are the only acceptable calibers is obsolete.

 

[GKC]

Rent it before you buy it! If you can't find the one you want, rent something comparable (barrel length, action, weight) to check recoil. A lot of people find .40 to be too snappy in a full size polymer gun, not to mention a compact or subcompact. Everyone is different when it comes to felt recoil, though, so if you can try before you buy, do so.

 

[Clovishound]

I'm with the herd on this one. Shoot one of each. If you like the 9 better, don't worry about the caliber differences.

 

[Geoff Timm]

I went with 9mm practice is considerably less expensive and I'm told the 9mm is easier to reload.
Geoff
Who needs to do all sorts of stuff this weekend, but I must be werry quiet...

 

[RaisinRiverRon]

Thanks for the input. The Kahr PM is the pistol I'm planning on getting, just unsure which caliber I'm going with. I reload both 9mm and 10mm, and have 1000 rds of once fired .40 brass so reloading and practice cost aren't really a concern.
Especially today with the quality of bullets designs available the difference in performance between pistol cartridges out of a 3" bbl. are minimal and shot placement a more determining factor.
Mostly I was looks for personal experience like 22/45 Fan's.
I guess I'm going to take everyone's advice and pay(argh) to rent one in each caliber to make a decision.
Thanks.

 

[FergusonTO35]

I would advise against the little Kahr in .40 unless you can shoot it first. This gun is about the size of a Walther PPK and weighs even less.

 

[gmartinnc]

A 938 Sig with the short mag contained all inside the grip, is a handful with hot loads. The 7 round mag gives you all fingers on the gun, but isn't quite as compact.

 

[Geoff Timm]

I have a Kahr 9094N, but it is large enough for all my fingers. I find this good.
Geoff
Who also has a SWaMPy 9c which is thicker, much thicker.

 

[Nerd_Ferguson]

For me it's not "can you shoot it". It's do you want to. I want my carry to be something I want to shoot often. I can shoot my friends Kahr PM 40 accurately. But I don't enjoy it. If I owned one, I would have to make myself practice with it for proficiency instead of wanting to shoot it for fun.

 

[Shooter III]

Thanks for the input. The Kahr PM is the pistol I'm planning on getting, just unsure which caliber I'm going with. I reload both 9mm and 10mm, and have 1000 rds of once fired .40 brass so reloading and practice cost aren't really a concern.
Especially today with the quality of bullets designs available the difference in performance between pistol cartridges out of a 3" bbl. are minimal and shot placement a more determining factor.
Mostly I was looks for personal experience like 22/45 Fan's.
I guess I'm going to take everyone's advice and pay(argh) to rent one in each caliber to make a decision.
Thanks.

((( WAIT )))
Read up on the new Remington R51 pistol >>> http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/01/remington-r51-9mm-gun-review8/ <<< as soon as they hit the Gun-Stores I want to hold and shoot one in the .40 S&W, if I like it, it will replace my Bersa .380 for a sub-compact.

 

[22/45 Fan]

((( WAIT )))
Read up on the new Remington R51 pistol >>> http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/01/remington-r51-9mm-gun-review8/ <<< as soon as they hit the Gun-Stores I want to hold and shoot one in the .40 S&W, if I like it, it will replace my Bersa .380 for a sub-compact.

Well, it's only available in 9 mm initially and it may be a while for the .40 to be introduced. Also it's a brand new product for Remington and I wouldn't want to be one of the Beta-testers so I'd also wait until all of the initial bugs have been worked out. Between those two considerations it might be quite a while before a reliable .40 is available.

Finally, it's going to be another light, small gun and will be just as unpleasant to shoot as any other similar pistol in .40 S&W.

 

[Shooter III]

Finally, it's going to be another light, small gun and will be just as unpleasant to shoot as any other similar pistol in .40 S&W.

All you're doing is making an assumption on past experience, so you don't know that for sure, It's an updated version of a design made to reduce muzzle flip and recoil. Consequently, none of us will truly know what it's like until someone actually shoots it and then gives us a report, try opening your mind to new possibilities !!! The most innovative things came to us in the early 1900's and all we have been doing since then is making those innovations better. Ain't much new under the sun.

 

[22/45 Fan]

All you're doing is making an assumption on past experience, so you don't know that for sure, It's an updated version of a design made to reduce muzzle flip and recoil. Consequently, none of us will truly know what it's like until someone actually shoots it and then gives us a report, try opening your mind to new possibilities !!! The most innovative things came to us in the early 1900's and all we have been doing since then is making those innovations better. Ain't much new under the sun.

You are dedicated to this fiction aren't you. The R51 is an updated design dating from 1918 strengthened to handle modern 9 mm (and eventually .40 S&W) ammunition and using better materials than the original. Otherwise there is nothing revolutionary or magic about it's design.

Past experience (read; knowing physics) says ANY small, light pistol shooting a 40S&W round is going to recoil hard and nothing Remington did or your wishful thinking is going to change that.

BTW, there have already been a couple of magazine tests of the R51 in 9 mm and they say it recoils pretty much like any other similar light 9 mm so it's pretty certain the .40 version will be more of the same.

 

[MountainWalker]

Both the SR9c and the SR40c are fluffy kittens cats to shoot. It is amazing how well that dual recoil spring absorbs shock. The 9mm is extremely light recoil and the 40SW version is easy to shoot and still has soft recoil. The downside is that these recoil springs make operating the slide a chore for most and may be too much for some. With good technique it's not to hard but still way harder than G26/27 pistols. I like the thumb safety on this striker fired weapon. Ruger has come up with a dandy little pistol in the SRc.

 

[22/45 Fan]

Both the SR9c and the SR40c are Fluffy Kittens cats to shoot. It is amazing how well that dual recoil spring absorbs shock. The 9mm is extremely light recoil and the 40SW version is easy to shoot and still has soft recoil. The downside is that these recoil springs make operating the slide a chore for most and may be too much for some. With good technique it's not to hard but still way harder than G26/27 pistols. I like the thumb safety on this striker fired weapon. Ruger has come up with a dandy little pistol in the SRc.

+1. I have the 9c and it is indeed very pleasant to shoot but it's not a super lightweight with a very small grip either. I haven't shot the 40c but it's weight and grip size should also make it manageable. And, yes, the recoil springs make for a pretty stiff slide operation.

I also like the manual safety as it makes the gun a bit more "proprietary" and keeps the very young, ignorant or careless (who shouldn't have access to it anyway but mistakes happen) from firing it by just pulling the trigger.

 

[vito]

I have the sr40c and it is not the most pleasant gun to shoot. "Snappy" is a somewhat mild way to describe it. I find that when switching at the range from my s40c to my P97 (45acp) it is like switching from a 12 gauge to a 20 gauge in terms of recoil. But I chose the sr40c as a carry weapon for both its caliber (pretty much the standard in law enforcement) and capacity (9+1 or 15+ 1 depending on which of the two magazines that came with the gun that I use). If I want a smaller gun, I use my LCP with Hornady Critical Defense ammo. And as time goes on, I am becoming increasingly convinced that there is not all that much difference in effectiveness between 380 acp, 38 special or 40S&W,

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

What do you think the 40 is going to give you that the 9mm won't?

The 9 is all you need, the recoil is less and the ammo is cheaper. Seems like a pretty easy decision to me.

 

[vito]

Greater stopping power. There had to be a reason that so many law enforcement agencies switched from 9mm to 40S&W.

 

[MountainWalker]

I feel that with the new ammo like the Critical Duty 135 grain, the 9mm Luger is a viable defense load. This test is interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZFZFmBKa0 Of course the 40SW & 45ACP are even better. Still in my head is the training at Gunsite when Jeff Cooper explained that an important element was to use a "Major Caliber" such as his favorite the 45ACP. While the 45ACP might be better, advances in ammo design have upgraded the 9mm.
There are other factors to being armed and carrying concealed, these are just a few that some may consider as important as caliber choice:
1. Don't shoot yourself or someone else by accident.
2. Do you have a good criminal attorney lined up, if have to use your gun the lawyer costs starts a $15K for a perfectly legal and reasonable shooting.
3. Where am I going and how can I avoid and minimize risky encounters.

 

[vito]

And use a revolver so that there are no shell casings on the ground with your fingerprints?

 

[MountainWalker]

Yes Vito and we have loyal friends who when called ask two questions. Where shall I meet you? Do you want me to bring a shovel?

Just wanted to return the chuckle I got when I read your post.

 

[vito]

To Mountain Walker: Seriously, where did the figure of $15K for a lawyer come from? I was looking into concealed carry legal insurance and have yet to find anything that seems reasonable. To pay an annual fee to an organization that does not commit to supporting you, i.e., they review the case and then decide if you are worthy of support, does not seem very reassuring. And one firm that advertises a lot, Concealed Carry US (or something similar; right now I don't fully recall the name) appeared worthwhile for about a $200 annual fee, but when I inquired about their "top criminal lawyers in America" that they use, the only attorney in my city was one who advertises himself as a "wills and trust specialist" (not exactly who you want advising and defending you in a possibly fatal self defense shooting situation). I am still hoping to find some reasonable way to have a qualified attorney reasonably available should I ever need one after a self defense shooting, but I am not optimistic.

 

[MountainWalker]

Vito: Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq is a Orlando, FL attorney who has written extensively on the subject. His book "Florida Firearms Law, Use and Ownership" is used by some Florida police and sheriff academies to explain firearms law to new LEO. He mentioned $15K casually as the cost for a totally correct and justified shooting without any complications. Often the actual cost is much more if their are any issues or you make a mistake, like telling the police the wrong thing. If something doesn't look right and the police arrest and charge you, an attorney is going to have some serious "billable hours" to present you. The alternative is to risk being sent to prison and then you realize that competence is what you want and damn the expense. My niece recently opened her own law firm in Seattle and we talked about fees in criminal cases and it really just depends on how much time your case takes. When your attorney goes to court on your behalf you are going "billable hours" for all that time, plus time preparing for your case. You can see how quickly 30, 50, 100, hours can add up. At that average national rate 100 hours will add up to $ 28,400 The attorney that I recently used to work an estate issue charges $250 per hour and let me off the hook for only a few hours for our issue. His fees are very reasonable and I got a bargain because I know him socially and it was a simple matter for him. Here is a little article since you are interested: http://www.rocketlawyer.com/article/how-much-do-lawyers-cost.rl

I would avoid a shooting incident like the plague and would only shoot when other options simply not available to me. There are however some situations which simply require an armed response to survive and then you worry about legal and financial issues later.

 

[kwh]

Big performance differences in short barrels. Best load by far in 9mm short barrel is Federal HST. Critical Defense outperformed Critical Duty in short barrrel. Check out "shooting the bull" on you tube for testing. Superior performing 9mm will outperform poor performance bullet in .40 S&W in short barrel.

 

[MountainWalker]

Big performance differences in short barrels. Best load by far in 9mm short barrel is Federal HST. Critical Defense outperformed Critical Duty in short barrrel. Check out "shooting the bull" on you tube for testing. Superior performing 9mm will outperform poor performance bullet in .40 S&W in short barrel.

It would be most helpful if you provided a tag(copy and then paste to support your comment) for the exact you tube you are talking about. Is this the test you are talking about? Looks impressive! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lGqdMdbir0

 

[Mobuck]

My SIL has a S&W 69??(40 cal compact 3.5"+/-). It is VERY obnoxious to shoot. He's a big guy and it got the best of him. He now carries an XDM compact 9mm.

 

[revhigh]

All you're doing is making an assumption on past experience, so you don't know that for sure, It's an updated version of a design made to reduce muzzle flip and recoil. Consequently, none of us will truly know what it's like until someone actually shoots it and then gives us a report, try opening your mind to new possibilities !!! The most innovative things came to us in the early 1900's and all we have been doing since then is making those innovations better. Ain't much new under the sun.

You are dedicated to this fiction aren't you.

Yeah ... He sure is .... LOL.

A gun is a gun and physics is physics. End of story.


REV