.22 lr FOR SELF DEFENSE?? (.22 vs. FRESH side of Beef)
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Hondo44
Hawkeye
Yes he explains the two loads before he went to the range; CCI LV and Federal fragmentation rounds are the two he shot. Listen again
Great info! If I'm ever attacked by a side of beef, I'll reach for one of my several fine .22LR firearms. 
Meanwhile, if attacked by someone/something that can hurt me, I'll go for something more powerful and, especially, more reliable. :wink:
Meanwhile, if attacked by someone/something that can hurt me, I'll go for something more powerful and, especially, more reliable. :wink:
We did some informal expansion/penetrations test on water filled milk jugs a couple weeks back. I can confirm that MiniMags do a good job. The bullets traveled 16-18" through the jugs and recovered bullets looked more like jacketed bullet mushrooms than plated lead. We measured 3 recovered MiniMags @ .33-.35" or equal to 9mm non-expanding. The "segmented bullets" produced a bit more initial expansion and evidenced similar fragmentation to those shown on the video.
Federal HVHP was sort of OK and I've used it successfully for vermin control in both rifle and handgun. Remington Golden HVHP showed zero expansion. Stingers were unimpressive at 3" barrel velocities w/o apparent expansion.
My take on using the smallish 22's for SD: While the terminal performance appears impressive, I question the immediate response to hits by aggressors. Making holes may get the job done but the immediate ending of an attack may be lacking. We should remember that prior to the advent of reliable expanding bullets, the 9mm was considered a poor choice for SD. The expanded 22's are of similar diameter to non-expanded 9mm often at a lower velocity.
Any firearm that goes bang is better than nothing but I'm cautious about recommending the 22 for SD. Son and I both carry SR22 pistols on the farm but we're more likely to encounter a rampaging possum than an aggressive human.
Federal HVHP was sort of OK and I've used it successfully for vermin control in both rifle and handgun. Remington Golden HVHP showed zero expansion. Stingers were unimpressive at 3" barrel velocities w/o apparent expansion.
My take on using the smallish 22's for SD: While the terminal performance appears impressive, I question the immediate response to hits by aggressors. Making holes may get the job done but the immediate ending of an attack may be lacking. We should remember that prior to the advent of reliable expanding bullets, the 9mm was considered a poor choice for SD. The expanded 22's are of similar diameter to non-expanded 9mm often at a lower velocity.
Any firearm that goes bang is better than nothing but I'm cautious about recommending the 22 for SD. Son and I both carry SR22 pistols on the farm but we're more likely to encounter a rampaging possum than an aggressive human.
SGW Gunsmith
Blackhawk
I guess it's easy for some to be negative concerning the demonstration video provided above, but at least the testing was done using a critter with real meat & bones rather than a block of "jell-o". As for me, I appreciate the time and effort the guy put into the video demonstration using what he did.
Once in a while I'll tune in to a show called "Forged in Fire", where bladesmiths make weapons that are tested on all sorts of critters, and other objects, unlikely to be encountered on the street to see if what they created will "KEAL". If anyone encounters a side of beef attacking their person, it's time to increase their dosage of medication. :lol:
Should we suppose that Forged in Fire might get some letters from viewers if they tested those weapons on human cadavers?
Although his shooting was done pretty dang close up, I'm sure that target recovery at a 21 foot distance, from recoil, using a .22 semi-auto is much quicker than some 'macho' cannon that some choose to carry. The video was very interesting!
Once in a while I'll tune in to a show called "Forged in Fire", where bladesmiths make weapons that are tested on all sorts of critters, and other objects, unlikely to be encountered on the street to see if what they created will "KEAL". If anyone encounters a side of beef attacking their person, it's time to increase their dosage of medication. :lol:
Should we suppose that Forged in Fire might get some letters from viewers if they tested those weapons on human cadavers?
Although his shooting was done pretty dang close up, I'm sure that target recovery at a 21 foot distance, from recoil, using a .22 semi-auto is much quicker than some 'macho' cannon that some choose to carry. The video was very interesting!
My wife has her .22lr LCR with her at all times yet she's had several people telling her that getting shot with that is similar to a bee sting, meanwhile their tacticool 17+1 laser sight designer bullet with 5 extra magazines is at home in a drawer. So far she hasn't been able to get anyone to volunteer to be stung by her 'bee".
At this point, I've not been hit by a 22lr but how much different would it be vs a 25 ACP?
From personal experience, the 25 produced an "Oh crap I've been shot" response followed immediately by a "now I'm REALLY PO'd" re-action.
Make your own decisions. I'm not as much interested in how long it takes the bad guy to bleed out as how long it takes the bad guy to say "OUCH, I quit, please stop shooting me".
From personal experience, the 25 produced an "Oh crap I've been shot" response followed immediately by a "now I'm REALLY PO'd" re-action.
Make your own decisions. I'm not as much interested in how long it takes the bad guy to bleed out as how long it takes the bad guy to say "OUCH, I quit, please stop shooting me".
Shorty Jenkins
Blackhawk
Jeff Cooper once said "I'd rather be missed by a .44, than hit by a .22". I pack a Ruger 22 stoked with CCI HP Stingers daily and feel quite safe. Isn't it all about bullet placement?
Just sayin'
Shorty
Just sayin'
Shorty
"Isn't it all about bullet placement?"
Yes but I dare say, I don't wish to handicap myself by using a tool that requires such precision.
Yes but I dare say, I don't wish to handicap myself by using a tool that requires such precision.
Hondo44 said:
I heard what he said, but I don't see CCI LV on their website and was wondering if anyone else here has used them.
https://www.cci-ammunition.com/rimfire/cci/
I would rather have a .22lr as a defense than having to depend on a big stick or a large rock. Any port in a storm.Mobuck said:
gunhaus
Bearcat
I once had a great conversation with my FIL (Retired police detective) and a couple of his former workmates one of whom was an armorer, about self defense, stopping power, and weapons. They all had some interesting thoughts about civilian vs police when it came to the need for stopping power. They all had some interesting observations about the difference between police and civilian shootouts. Mainly, they thought that many of the stories about failure to stop a perpetrator even with multiple hits from very powerful handguns were almost always POLICE involved shootings. And that in civilian shootings, often seemingly tiny inadequate arms/ammo 22, 25 auto 380 ball ammo etc, resulted in a single shot or two resulting in an end or break off of the assault. They had all seen multiple examples of both, and all shared the idea that it had to do with mindset: In a predatory assault on a civilian, the perp like any predator believes THEY have the upper hand, and are NOT expecting resistance, let alone to be shot. And that the shock factor of receiving an immediate deadly reply to their attack is a big factor in ending such affairs quickly. (Not sure of the exact stats today, but just a few years ago, the average civilian shooting happened at less than ten feet, usually involved two participants, and involved just less than two shots) In a police shooting, the bad guys is of a completely different mindset, and in a completely different state than in the civilian shooting; As they put it, if you are pulling gun on the cops and firing, you are aware in some part of your mind that this will only end one of two ways - death or eternity in a cage. The whole physical response - fight or flight etc, is totally different. Adrenal flow is much higher. panic factor higher, rage higher all of which lead to those stories of perps soaking up whole magazines and still rolling. All these gentlemen were quite comfortable with family members carrying fairly small arms for defense, and my FIL still carries a 22 in his pocket a lot in his retirement. Food for thought! But if course personal confidence has to dictate your selection.
gunhaus
Bearcat
I once had a great conversation with my FIL (Retired police detective) and a couple of his former workmates one of whom was an armorer, about self defense, stopping power, and weapons. They all had some interesting thoughts about civilian vs police when it came to the need for stopping power. They all had some interesting observations about the difference between police and civilian shootouts. Mainly, they thought that many of the stories about failure to stop a perpetrator even with multiple hits from very powerful handguns were almost always POLICE involved shootings. And that in civilian shootings, often seemingly tiny inadequate arms/ammo 22, 25 auto 380 ball ammo etc, resulted in a single shot or two resulting in an end or break off of the assault. They had all seen multiple examples of both, and all shared the idea that it had to do with mindset: In a predatory assault on a civilian, the perp like any predator believes THEY have the upper hand, and are NOT expecting resistance, let alone to be shot. And that the shock factor of receiving an immediate deadly reply to their attack is a big factor in ending such affairs quickly. (Not sure of the exact stats today, but just a few years ago, the average civilian shooting happened at less than ten feet, usually involved two participants, and involved just less than two shots) In a police shooting, the bad guys is of a completely different mindset, and in a completely different state than in the civilian shooting; As they put it, if you are pulling gun on the cops and firing, you are aware in some part of your mind that this will only end one of two ways - death or eternity in a cage. The whole physical response - fight or flight etc, is totally different. Adrenal flow is much higher. panic factor higher, rage higher all of which lead to those stories of perps soaking up whole magazines and still rolling. All these gentlemen were quite comfortable with family members carrying fairly small arms for defense, and my FIL still carries a 22 in his pocket a lot in his retirement. Food for thought! But if course personal confidence has to dictate your selection.
Shorty Jenkins
Blackhawk
I would also say, like anything else we do, practice-practice-practice! Confidence will enhance being comfortable with any
size weapon or round you choose. Personal defense and the weapon we use is a matter of individual preference. I enjoy the
conversation this topic generates. Thanks to all who have joined in.
Shorty
size weapon or round you choose. Personal defense and the weapon we use is a matter of individual preference. I enjoy the
conversation this topic generates. Thanks to all who have joined in.
Shorty
JStacy
Blackhawk
I worked in a hospital for 42 years and saw multiple gun shot victims in the ER. I never saw one person survive a 22LR HP shot to the upper head. I saw multiple killed with a 22 shot in the chest and the most people killed were shot with a 22.
I also saw people walk in with a 22 solid through the lung saying "I need to see a doctor I have been shot" I have seen people walk in after being with a RN 38 spl and go home two days later.
Like previously stated bullet placement is key to effect and it is better to have a 22 in a gun fight that a stick.
I also saw people walk in with a 22 solid through the lung saying "I need to see a doctor I have been shot" I have seen people walk in after being with a RN 38 spl and go home two days later.
Like previously stated bullet placement is key to effect and it is better to have a 22 in a gun fight that a stick.
FergusonTO35
Hunter
At my side job shop, we get a large number of customers who physically can't deal with any kind of recoil nor can they rack the slide on most centerfire autos. I steer them towards the excellent S&W Shield EZ .380, it is designed to be as easy to use as possible. If they want something smaller, Ruger LCP II .22 all the way. Easy to rack and shoot, and holds 10+1. Recoil and muzzle jump are negligible so they can get quick follow up shots.
I have an LCP II .22, it has become my constant companion at home. I load it with Aguila Interceptor 40 grain which clocks 1002 fps across my chronograph from this pistol. I live in the country, and I am more likely to encounter a threat from an animal rather than a person. This pistol is really accurate at close distances, definitely more so than any of my other small guns.
I have an LCP II .22, it has become my constant companion at home. I load it with Aguila Interceptor 40 grain which clocks 1002 fps across my chronograph from this pistol. I live in the country, and I am more likely to encounter a threat from an animal rather than a person. This pistol is really accurate at close distances, definitely more so than any of my other small guns.
donw
Bearcat
this subject has been addressed many times, on many forums and many campfire discussions...
selection of a personal SD tool is highly personal.
one of the key factors in successful use of the SD tool is training/practice.
some of you may remember the old west movies where the good guy would shoot the gun out of the bad guys hand...we all know...that ain't too likely to happen.
bullet placement is another key factor.
the MAIN factor is being ready, willing and ABLE to place the bullet(s) where it will stop the aggression. remember...most SD law is to STOP (meaning; not necessarily killing) aggressive/potentially lethal behavior.
using your selected tool should be based on your capabilities to use it effectively.
selection of a personal SD tool is highly personal.
one of the key factors in successful use of the SD tool is training/practice.
some of you may remember the old west movies where the good guy would shoot the gun out of the bad guys hand...we all know...that ain't too likely to happen.
bullet placement is another key factor.
the MAIN factor is being ready, willing and ABLE to place the bullet(s) where it will stop the aggression. remember...most SD law is to STOP (meaning; not necessarily killing) aggressive/potentially lethal behavior.
using your selected tool should be based on your capabilities to use it effectively.
