Manual safety on semi auto's or not?

[kmoore]

Safeties, topic was MANUAL safeties. There fine at the range but here I am talking about self-defense. Read the fine print in your gun's manual. Sigs like Glocks and some other semi autos have built in safeties. There still safeties in the firearm. But with internal safeties you don't push/pull/flip them off. As YOU pull the trigger the safety or safeties disengage. Glock has 3 safeties, 1 or 2 more than some other semi autos. 3 more than DA revolvers.
Above all else the best safety is your brain. Keep your finger off and away from every single trigger on every gun until you're ready and willing to fire the gun.
What modern striker fired handguns do is allow you to not need to use some fine motor skills finding a manual safety to turn off while you're trying the get the gun into combat. At the practice range switching off safeties is no big deal and maybe safer for the newbie shooter. Fine motor skills are fingers trying to do routine stuff. Stress will make things like finding that manual safety more difficult.
1911s, they work and work well but need more training and another step to get the gun firing. Use the KISS system that these modern guns have.
Old days cops using revolvers, the speed loader or other means of reloading the gun during stress shooting was the biggest problem. Not the gun being limited to 5 or 6 rounds. It was because the fine motor skills slow down when you're under stress. It happens to everyone. At the range some cops would get the handshakes when it came to reloading. But not at any other time. More training will help but it still happens to some degree. The striker fired semi auto was found to be the best and easier weapon to draw, fire and reload under stress.
Hunters think about the rifles and shotguns you hunt with. Likely they need to be carried with the safety on if a round is chambered. How many times a bird or big game hunting suddenly appears, and you quickly raise the gun to shoot. But can't because in that moment you forgot to switch the safety off. That has happened to cops using semi autos handguns with manual safeties.

 

[kmoore]

I've had my Beretta 84F for over 30 years now. I see the point of them and I'm sure they save more lives then they take and don't think I'll come across the time I'll need to load one round into chamber by hand because I lost or broke a magazine. I don't mind it at all. Just my thought on the subject.

In my example the gun still has a live round in the chamber. In combat or SD shooting you may want to drop the mag after firing some rounds, but the gun is not empty. Thats called a "Add mid" load for short. A slide locked back on empty gun is a combat reload.
In a add mid load you want a full mag before more shooting or moving again. With a mag disconnect you have a gun with a round in it but until a mag is fully seated again, the gun is useless.
The other thing that can happen the mag release somehow gets pushed before or during you are shooting. Yes, that does happen. Same problem you have a gun with one shot ready, but gun will not fire.
The mag disconnect has likely saved some poorly trained or dumb folks from shooting themselves that had not cleared the chamber but just release the mag and try pull the trigger while having the muzzle pointed at them or someone else.

 

[Yoter]

Most semi-autos, not to include single action models that most agencies no longer carry, do not need a manual safety.

 

[Snake45]

Safeties, topic was MANUAL safeties. There fine at the range but here I am talking about self-defense. Read the fine print in your gun's manual. Sigs like Glocks and some other semi autos have built in safeties. There still safeties in the firearm. But with internal safeties you don't push/pull/flip them off. As YOU pull the trigger the safety or safeties disengage. Glock has 3 safeties, 1 or 2 more than some other semi autos. 3 more than DA revolvers.

 

[RC44Mag]

That was his thought process. Not one I would take or suggest. He was very lucky that he was not executed where he lay. The perp left and left the officer's gun. Most of the cops who lose or give their weapon to a crook will be shot to death by their own gun.
Real life isn't like on TV where the perp tells an officer to drop it and after the cop does, the crook leaves. Training teaches means of dealing with those deathly encounters. Bottom line surrendering your weapon to a hardened crook is mostly a death sentence. Fight till you cannot. On another note. Once a LAPD chief named "Gates" was asked about only arming his officers with 38 spl. 158 gr lead bullets. His words were "In case one of my officers gets disarmed he might survive getting shot with his own gun". Because that lacked power over a .357 or many better choices in guns and bullets.
That was the wrong answer. He should have his officers better trained on gun retention and better holsters to retain the gun. Along with better survival training. Remember the real case made into a book and movie. "The Onion Field."

Wow, strange things sure do happen when the crap hits the fan.
Gates(spit) don't even get me started on that POS.
The Onion Field, great book decent movie. Wambaugh was one of my favorite authors back then.

 

[RC44Mag]

I have a Ruger with a decocker and it makes me cringe every time I use it, something about that hammer falling toward a live round
just feels wrong. It's the only gun I own with one.

I have a W.G. P228 and I have no qualms about the decocker. I do practice safe handling with it as we all do here. My finger is off the trigger when not pointed at target and it's not pointed at anything I wouldn't want to shoot. That holds true for decocking with the Sig.
It is a bit safer, for lack of a better word, for me because I'm a southpaw and use my left index trigger finger to decock it so obviously it's off the bang switch thus avoiding that particular potential problem. My Beretta 84 also has a decocker but it's an ambi. I don't feel hampered by either but then again I've never had a run in when my adrenaline hit the top of the chart, close though.

 

[blume357]

Just about every handgun I own is DA/SA decock only... my first one was a Ruger P95 and for a while it kind of bothered me to decock it but now after about 20 years it's so natural I almost don't think about it.

 

[vito]

I dpn't claim any expertise in the internal mechanicals of different semi autos, so I would appreciate understanding why some here believe that striker fired semis need a manual safety in particular. I have two semi autos that I carry, depending upon whether I am pocket carrying (my Ruger LC9s) or OWB carrying (my Glock 26). Both are striker fired. Only the Ruger has an external safety which I do not use, worrying that in a life or death situation I might not remember to flip off the safety and then would find myself trying to pull a trigger and nothing happening. I understand that the Glock has internal safeties, but why in particular should I be using the manual safety on the Ruger?

 

[old 41]

I haven't seen a video yet of someone accidentally firing a pistol with the safety on

 

[kmoore]

Makes my point, dumb people doing dumb things. His firearms handling was unsafe. Nothing he did, would be approved by the firearms instructors. He should be fired.

 

[PRichardson87]

The only safety that would have worked for that DEA instructor is not giving him a firearm.

 

[Snake45]

Makes my point, dumb people doing dumb things. His firearms handling was unsafe. Nothing he did, would be approved by the firearms instructors. He should be fired.

Okay then, if instead of shooting himself, he'd merely DROPPED the stupid thing and it had been grabbed off the floor by a fast-thinking kid. Explain to us how the various GLOCK "safeties" would have kept the kid from immediately shooting it at the instructor, the teacher, his/her fellow students, or even him/herself.

I'll wait for you here.

 

[Pál_K]

I dpn't claim any expertise in the internal mechanicals of different semi autos, so I would appreciate understanding why some here believe that striker fired semis need a manual safety in particular.

I'm not an expert, either. My understanding so far is that with a striker fired semiauto (e.g. LCP II, Glock, SIG P365), the hammer is partially cocked by operation of the slide. So, when you rack the slide to chamber a round, and whenever a round is fired, the hammer is partially cocked and as a result less effort is required (compared to a double action) to fully cock and release the hammer. Also, trigger pulls are consistent. This lighter trigger pull makes some people uneasy and wish for an external safety in addition to the goofy "trigger safety" (*); perhaps they believe something in their holster or pocket could snag and pull the trigger.

With a true double-action, whereby the hammer is not cocked after chambering and not cocked after firing, pulling the trigger does two things: it fully cocks the hammer from rest and releases it. This is like a double action revolver. With such a firearm the trigger pull is usually long and heavy and therefore the chance of an accidental discharge is reduced.

More than you likely want to know:

The LCP (version 1 or version 2, but not II) is not a true double action. If it were, you could take an unloaded LCP, pull the trigger repeatedly, and the hammer would fully cock and fall each time (like on a double action revolver). Instead, if you rack the slide on an LCP (totally unloaded, for safety) and pull the trigger, the hammer will fully cock and fall just once. Pulling the trigger again does nothing. To get it to fire again you have to rack the slide. From what I've been able to discover, this partially cocks the hammer, though not as much as with a striker fired pistol. Regardless, it's not a true double action. I think it's a double action Kellerman design (DAK) or similar to it. The trigger pull is consistent and heavier and longer than with a striker fired design, so fewer people feel the need for an external safety.

(*) I call it goofy because anything that would pull the trigger is most likely to pull that safety as well, so it seems to offer no real safety.

 

[GunnyGene]

I'm not an expert, either. My understanding so far is that with a striker fired semiauto (e.g. LCP II, Glock, SIG P365), the hammer is partially cocked by operation of the slide. So, when you rack the slide to chamber a round, and whenever a round is fired, the hammer is partially cocked and as a result less effort is required (compared to a double action) to fully cock and release the hammer. Also, trigger pulls are consistent. This lighter trigger pull makes some people uneasy and wish for an external safety in addition to the goofy "trigger safety" (*); perhaps they believe something in their holster or pocket could snag and pull the trigger.

With a true double-action, whereby the hammer is not cocked after chambering and not cocked after firing, pulling the trigger does two things: it fully cocks the hammer from rest and releases it. This is like a double action revolver. With such a firearm the trigger pull is usually long and heavy and therefore the chance of an accidental discharge is reduced.

More than you likely want to know:

The LCP (version 1 or version 2, but not II) is not a true double action. If it were, you could take an unloaded LCP, pull the trigger repeatedly, and the hammer would fully cock and fall each time (like on a double action revolver). Instead, if you rack the slide on an LCP (totally unloaded, for safety) and pull the trigger, the hammer will fully cock and fall just once. Pulling the trigger again does nothing. To get it to fire again you have to rack the slide. From what I've been able to discover, this partially cocks the hammer, though not as much as with a striker fired pistol. Regardless, it's not a true double action. I think it's a double action Kellerman design (DAK) or similar to it. The trigger pull is consistent and heavier and longer than with a striker fired design, so fewer people feel the need for an external safety.

(*) I call it goofy because anything that would pull the trigger is most likely to pull that safety as well, so it seems to offer no real safety.

I have 3 guns with internal hammers that function as you describe. P365, Ruger LC45, and S&W EZ 9mm. Haven't had any safety related issues with any of them although the LC45, and the EZ both have manual safeties, which I rarely bother with. If there was a design issue with this type of action, I have no doubt the companies would waste no time issuing recalls on them if they ever got out of the factory to start with. They aren't going to open themselves up to massive lawsuits. But neither can they idiot proof every firearm. There are way too many idiots out there to have a chance of that working.

 

[blume357]

I was the one who said striker fired guns needed a safety and I was really just almost being a troll on that. I just personally don't think they are that safe for the average gun owner especially for carry.... but I know many will disagree with me and that's okay. As I understand it the double trigger on a Glock is really part of the drop safety part. From what I understand many have gone off while re-holstering when a cord or some other debris get caught in the trigger guard. But then I own 3 Glocks and also a Sig P320 compact (it doesn't even have the double safety trigger) Also, somewhere is a Ruger LCP and a Fn something that actually does have a safety on it.

 

[GunnyGene]

I was the one who said striker fired guns needed a safety and I was really just almost being a troll on that. I just personally don't think they are that safe for the average gun owner especially for carry.... but I know many will disagree with me and that's okay. As I understand it the double trigger on a Glock is really part of the drop safety part. From what I understand many have gone off while re-holstering when a cord or some other debris get caught in the trigger guard. But then I own 3 Glocks and also a Sig P320 compact (it doesn't even have the double safety trigger) Also, somewhere is a Ruger LCP and a Fn something that actually does have a safety on it.

Well, maybe the ATF should include a multiple choice question on the 4473, asking if you're a Below Average, Average, or Above Average gun buyer, and if you don't check Above Average, you don't get a "proceed". That way we could all be assured that only the right people own guns.

 

[kmoore]

Okay then, if instead of shooting himself, he'd merely DROPPED the stupid thing and it had been grabbed off the floor by a fast-thinking kid. Explain to us how the various GLOCK "safeties" would have kept the kid from immediately shooting it at the instructor, the teacher, his/her fellow students, or even him/herself.

I'll wait for you here.

Unless the kid pulls the trigger, it would not fire. You know that.
I can't explain what your kid knows about guns, what if he knew exactly how to flip the safety off if it had one.
If that kid was an inner city thug, my guess is he would pull his own gun out of his pants and shoot the cop. After words get high fives from his classmates.

 

[Snake45]

Unless the kid pulls the trigger, it would not fire. You know that.

If the kid pulls the trigger, it WILL fire. You know that.

Months if not weeks after DC Metro police adopted the GLOCK, an officer's toddler daughter shot herself to death with her father's duty weapon. I can't think of any other kind of handgun where she could have done that.

Calling the GLOCK a "Safe Action" is probably the biggest lie in the history of firearms marketing.

 

[blume357]

Y'all will have too excuse me, but as of late I've become to a degree one of those mad old men. part of me believes or knows that most people are just lazy and stupid. I had to go to Home Depot yesterday... How hard is it to return the shopping cart or carriage you carried stuff out to your car or truck back to the bend? There are numerous things I see everyday that proves to me that not only are most people not really qualified to own a gun but also should not be reproducing.
Hand your pistol to the average gun owner and watch what they do with it.

 

[Tensaw]

I like the manual safety on my P345. Just instinctive to switch off. Also have a 1911 and like the safeties on it.