so, this winter, I believe i will predatoe hunt. picked up a .223 handi-rifle with a 26" ( I think) bull barrel. Finding a load was pretty easy(25.1gr. of IMR 3031 and a 50gr. V-Max), but I'm having second thoughts using such a frangible bullet on coyotes. Thoughts? Regular soft point(expanding) bullet or violent expansion(grenade-like effect) bullet??
Coyotes
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Bucks Owin
Hunter
Don't know about legalities involved where you are, but quite a few years ago when I used to harvest the odd winter coyote up in BC, (prime hides were worth near $100 then) I had fairly good luck with the 90 gr Speer FMJ in my .243 if no bone was hit...If you're looking for a fast kill rather than keeping the hide, I expect that V-Max in the ribcage should work pretty well!
FWIW
(Now and then I'd get a ricochet that was something to hear too BTW! :shock: Use FMJ bullets with caution :wink: )
FWIW
(Now and then I'd get a ricochet that was something to hear too BTW! :shock: Use FMJ bullets with caution :wink: )
cruzerlou
Buckeye
I concoure with Buck .Out of my S&W M&P 15-T a 55 gr V-Max will vaporize a fat groung hog at 400+ yards .If your shooting for pelts I'd stick with a FMJ or some sort of bonded bullet J.M.O.H.
Lou
Lou
Ya know ... I have no problem with hunting .... OR with eliminating predators that prey on livestock .....
But I still don't care for pics of an animal being displayed like the above.
No offense intended to the poster ... just not my taste. Animals just try to live their lives ....
Not only that .... it looks way too much like a dog, and as we all know .... dogs are the most majestic creatures on earth.
I'm just a wussie when it comes to animals. I have way more respect for most animals than I do for some humans. At least animals are honest in what they do and how they live .....
REV
But I still don't care for pics of an animal being displayed like the above.
No offense intended to the poster ... just not my taste. Animals just try to live their lives ....
Not only that .... it looks way too much like a dog, and as we all know .... dogs are the most majestic creatures on earth.
I'm just a wussie when it comes to animals. I have way more respect for most animals than I do for some humans. At least animals are honest in what they do and how they live .....
REV
contender
Ruger Guru
I think the reason this pic was posted was to show the destructive nature of some bullets. At least that's the gist of it as I read things.
Many folks appreciate visual teaching aids to answer their questions.
And as a person who deals with coyotes in his job, I can say that they are not like any domestic dog I know of. They may resemble them in looks, but their way of life is nothing like them. I carry a mental picture of what a family of coyotes did to a flock of sheep in texas when I used to hunt them there. The pic above is G-rated compared to what they did to those sheep. THe coyotes were teaching their pups how to kill. Twenty-seven sheep ripped open as a class for the pups.
I can appreciate your sensitivities, and understand your thoughts. But, some folks also want to see what exactly a bullet can do.
JMO!
Many folks appreciate visual teaching aids to answer their questions.
And as a person who deals with coyotes in his job, I can say that they are not like any domestic dog I know of. They may resemble them in looks, but their way of life is nothing like them. I carry a mental picture of what a family of coyotes did to a flock of sheep in texas when I used to hunt them there. The pic above is G-rated compared to what they did to those sheep. THe coyotes were teaching their pups how to kill. Twenty-seven sheep ripped open as a class for the pups.
I can appreciate your sensitivities, and understand your thoughts. But, some folks also want to see what exactly a bullet can do.
JMO!
Bucks Owin
Hunter
Good thing I don't have a photo of one I tagged with a .243 60 gr Sierra HP @ 3800 fps one time....(Two "end pieces" of coyote and a red mist of scraps and fur for the most part)
But I hear the REV too, life shouldn't be taken lightly, even if it's a mangy killer like a yodel dog....(And they do sound purty.. :wink: )
But I hear the REV too, life shouldn't be taken lightly, even if it's a mangy killer like a yodel dog....(And they do sound purty.. :wink: )
I hear you guys, and I understand the need to eliminate predators, as well as the fact that while it looks kinda like a dog, it certainly isn't a dog.
Regarding the sheep that Contender was talking about ... that's nature, as cruel as it seems. It's tough to reason with a pack of coyotes teaching their young, and believe me ... if I (or a loved one, including my dogs) was being attacked by ANY other animal ... even another dog ... it would be curtains for the other animal.
It's why I can't even watch the hunting shows on TV. Seeing an animal 'hit' by a bullet just kinda makes me sick. I know it's sport .... and have no issues with others hunting ... I just choose not to do it myself.
Wasn't condemning ... just stating my feelings.
Regarding shot placement ... are you supposed to shoot a coyote in what looks to have been the stomach ? I would have thought more forward in the chest would have been first choice. I'm also not calling the poster a bad shot ... just wondering since I don't know. I'd also think you'd want a bullet that didn't tear things up so bad ... but what do I know ?
REV
Regarding the sheep that Contender was talking about ... that's nature, as cruel as it seems. It's tough to reason with a pack of coyotes teaching their young, and believe me ... if I (or a loved one, including my dogs) was being attacked by ANY other animal ... even another dog ... it would be curtains for the other animal.
It's why I can't even watch the hunting shows on TV. Seeing an animal 'hit' by a bullet just kinda makes me sick. I know it's sport .... and have no issues with others hunting ... I just choose not to do it myself.
Wasn't condemning ... just stating my feelings.
Regarding shot placement ... are you supposed to shoot a coyote in what looks to have been the stomach ? I would have thought more forward in the chest would have been first choice. I'm also not calling the poster a bad shot ... just wondering since I don't know. I'd also think you'd want a bullet that didn't tear things up so bad ... but what do I know ?
REV
When we lived in AZ my son and I one time came upon a few coyotes that were eating a calf as it was being born. A more disgusting sight I've never seen, as it looked like they weren't really all that interested in eating the calf either. At any rate the cow, had to be destroyed too by the rancher after we reported it to him. I don't think much of coyotes.... JMO.
Three44s
Single-Sixer
I run the gamout on calibers for coyotes. .223, .22-250, .243 and .25-06
If you want pelts .......... you are going to have to do some home work.
About the best hard hitter was my .22-250 and the Nosler 55 gr ballistic tip .......... many never exited on a broadside shot!
If you clip a bone then all bets can be off even with a FMJ so there is no "silver bullet" in this game.
My .223 throws mostly the Hornady 55 gr. SX and it's fair for staying in but it can exit on a a broadside shot and make a mess of things particularly if you get placement too far back.
Everything I have heard about the V-maxes are that they expand very fast.
I'd just give it a spin and see what happens. I have only shot otes with vmax's with my .25-06 and most bullets from the .243 and the grand .25's JUST HAMMER them ..... so that's my .02 worth!
Three 44s
If you want pelts .......... you are going to have to do some home work.
About the best hard hitter was my .22-250 and the Nosler 55 gr ballistic tip .......... many never exited on a broadside shot!
If you clip a bone then all bets can be off even with a FMJ so there is no "silver bullet" in this game.
My .223 throws mostly the Hornady 55 gr. SX and it's fair for staying in but it can exit on a a broadside shot and make a mess of things particularly if you get placement too far back.
Everything I have heard about the V-maxes are that they expand very fast.
I'd just give it a spin and see what happens. I have only shot otes with vmax's with my .25-06 and most bullets from the .243 and the grand .25's JUST HAMMER them ..... so that's my .02 worth!
Three 44s
Thanks very much for the input. I'll just stay away from large bones(shoulder) and try for double lung shots...sounds like the bullet is probably too frangible for big bone shots. Not really interested in keeping pelts, at least not yet. Experiment, see what works for me and my set of circumstances...Thanks again!!.........
gramps
Hawkeye
I second what contender said. I had a mother coyote come in with a couple of pups. Mama showed the young'uns how to kill by tearing out the throat of a 30 lb corrieadale lamb. The two pups tried to do the same to a 40 lb shetland sheep who stood her ground till the guardian dogs arrived. That shetland sheep was covered with rips and tears over every inch of her body and had a crooked neck. Her 5 lb lamb was unscathed, and mama raised that little lamb in spite of the injuries. Yep, I'll shoot a coyote in a heart beat.
gramps
gramps
gramps said:
We lost a few pets, and some livestock when I was growing up. My 11 yo daughter used to think it was "so cruel" to shoot coyotes....until she went over to her friends house across the street to see the litter of kittens. All she saw was kitten parts strewn about the orchard from the coyotes. NOW, this same 11 y/o asks to go out with me to "get em" when she hears them around our house.
BTW, I nailed one today with the diminutive 22 hornet and lightweight 30 grain varmint grenade at 90 yards. There was no exit wound, but this is a light bullet and was a frontal shot, with a muzzle velocity of around 3300 fps. Had this been a v-max.... there would have been more destruction.
Your load in the 223 should be around 3200, but with that heavier v-max, you will have an explosive load.
sp
Single-Sixer
I don't like coyotes but I feel uncomfortable shooting them. I understand they must be shot on sight. I hear that (from a local professional hunter - animal control - and pelt seller) that the .204 Ruger when loaded with a 32 gr VMax will kill them real quickly with usually only an entry hole.
When hunting them I am quickly impressed by the fact that they are intelligent, cunning little(?) beasts incapable of showing any mercy to their prey that includes deer, calves, pets and anything they can bring down by themselves or a team effort. They also eat everthing including apples, eggs, and lactating calf poop.
Some time ago a young woman (human) that was apparently by herself was attacked and killed by a pack of coyotes in Nova Scotia Canada. This is why they must be shot on sight. With no fear of man it will be only a matter of time before a child is killed in a back yard or even while getting off a school bus.
Very often fmj bullets hit a major bone and tumble (yaw) causing pelt damage. My .17 Rem within a reasonable range, less than 100 yds kills them like a instant poison with only a tiny entry hole (if the coyotes used morticians they would approve)
When hunting them I am quickly impressed by the fact that they are intelligent, cunning little(?) beasts incapable of showing any mercy to their prey that includes deer, calves, pets and anything they can bring down by themselves or a team effort. They also eat everthing including apples, eggs, and lactating calf poop.
Some time ago a young woman (human) that was apparently by herself was attacked and killed by a pack of coyotes in Nova Scotia Canada. This is why they must be shot on sight. With no fear of man it will be only a matter of time before a child is killed in a back yard or even while getting off a school bus.
Very often fmj bullets hit a major bone and tumble (yaw) causing pelt damage. My .17 Rem within a reasonable range, less than 100 yds kills them like a instant poison with only a tiny entry hole (if the coyotes used morticians they would approve)
208packinheat
Single-Sixer
Rev, I gotta tell you that I am 100% in your camp on this. I also want to say I think the pict posting here is OK, because it is not flaunted publicly, it seems to me it was posted to promote the discussion at hand. Having said that, I find your response interesting and one I have had some difficulty explaining in my own circle of friends at times. I am a softie, I mean, I take it with notice to see a deer dead on the road, someone causing harm to their domestic pets or stock, seeing wild critters suffer, even though it may be "natural" such as winter kill. I find them amazingly graceful, beautiful, and deserving of respect, yet I also love and live to hunt. Some say you are a hypocrite. I say quite the opposite, but find it hard to say the right and convincing words. I always seem to establish some kind of closeness with the animals I hunt, again hard to explain. I must say I do not loose sleep over this, but your comment brings the issue to the front for me.
I also despise animal rights groups because I believe their motives lack complete consideration for the animal and the potential discoveries (medical for example), and is more personal than realistic. Seems like they do it to give themselves some kind of righteous feeling. Especially those that conduct Eco or Animal Rights Terrorism. That is not to say those involved with the death or manipulation of animal beings can do their work without respect for life and the basic proper treatment of animals. I believe you can do these things with proper respect and consideration.
Anyway, long winded, not sure why I thought I need to say anything, but it is my story...
Thanks Rev for saying what was in your heart on the matter. BTW I am + a bunch on the more respect for animals than some humans part of your post.
I also despise animal rights groups because I believe their motives lack complete consideration for the animal and the potential discoveries (medical for example), and is more personal than realistic. Seems like they do it to give themselves some kind of righteous feeling. Especially those that conduct Eco or Animal Rights Terrorism. That is not to say those involved with the death or manipulation of animal beings can do their work without respect for life and the basic proper treatment of animals. I believe you can do these things with proper respect and consideration.
Anyway, long winded, not sure why I thought I need to say anything, but it is my story...
Thanks Rev for saying what was in your heart on the matter. BTW I am + a bunch on the more respect for animals than some humans part of your post.
Larry from Bend
Single-Sixer
I've killed a bunch with 55 grain Ballistic Tips in 223s @ about 3150 fps. Generally these won't exit. Hitting the point of a shoulder (or a gut shot) CAN make a mess unless you're a looong ways away.
I've also killed a bunch with 55 grain soft points and 53 grain hollow points. I see little difference in the wounds they make as compared to the BTs.
I've also killed a bunch with 55 grain soft points and 53 grain hollow points. I see little difference in the wounds they make as compared to the BTs.
Flash
Buckeye
revhigh said:Ya know ... I have no problem with hunting .... OR with eliminating predators that prey on livestock .....
But I still don't care for pics of an animal being displayed like the above.
No offense intended to the poster ... just not my taste. Animals just try to live their lives ....
Not only that .... it looks way too much like a dog, and as we all know .... dogs are the most majestic creatures on earth.
I'm just a wussie when it comes to animals. I have way more respect for most animals than I do for some humans. At least animals are honest in what they do and how they live .....
REV
I think we all hear ya Rev and respect your opinions. The coyote is like a preditory insect with a feral canine blood line. Sure they have young, as does any creature on earth but they're not the type to fetch your slippers or the newspaper.
WESHOOT2
Hunter
If I were wondering about which bullet, I'd start by telephoning the fine techs at Sierra and asking them.
