Colorado DOW releases wolves in Grand County

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BearBiologist

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They ruined the elk and deer hunting for years in Idaho. SSS should be in effect.
Examination of the actual annual population counts from the field biologists don't agree with you. Certainly not the elk and deer herds here in eastern Washington (right next door to Idaho). And most definitely the herds in North-Central Washington where I worked! Wind farms and cattle grazing have impacted the herds more as a result of "rural welfare" in the form of low-cost grazing leases. And I don't remember ever seeing cattle grazing under active wind turbines.

Oh, my biologist friends working in Yellowstone say the herds are much healthier!!



 

Durango Dave

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... that were wounded by nimrod hunters who couldn't shoot.
In the Bible Nimrod was a great hunter. He was a very strong man.
Long ago to be called a nimrod used to be compliment. Now to be called a nimrod is a great insult. Now a nimrod is a dumbass, a very poor hunter. It's interesting how this term has changed 180° from what it originally meant.

Yes, I know my comment has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. So ban me.
 

BearBiologist

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In the Bible Nimrod was a great hunter. He was a very strong man.
Long ago to be called a nimrod used to be compliment. Now to be called a nimrod is a great insult. Now a nimrod is a dumbass, a very poor hunter. It's interesting how this term has changed 180° from what it originally meant.

Yes, I know my comment has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. So ban me.
I know! You are right! Interesting point to make!
 

Durango Dave

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The Colorado state constitution needs to be modified to ban wildlife management issues from being placed on the general election ballots. Dodo bird city people that know nothing about wildlife have no business setting management policies.
We never used to vote to release wild animals.
Colorado Parks and Wildlife decided to release Lynx in the late 1990's. People were outraged. A petition was made to make sure predators would never be released into the wild without a vote by the people. That petition was put to a vote and made into law. A predator could not be released without it going to a vote by the public. The very next animal that was proposed to be release was the wolf. That was voted on and now people are outraged saying "people should never vote on when predators should be released into the wild!"
 

dstegjas

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Ohio
I was withing feet of wild bears with cubs and not in danger! Hikers traveled through areas with several resident bears and the only negative interactions were started by dogs attacking the bears.

This is a very foolish thing to put out on any forum on the internet. I am not arguing that it happened or not. What I am saying is people will read this and think it's alright to approach sows with cubs. I don't have all the letters behind my name like you do. However I do have common sense that tells me a person might get lucky. The day their luck runs out it's all over. Anyway, no since arguing with a college boy an all.
 

contender

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Lake Lure NC USA
I have read all these posts with extreme interest. I work in nuisance wildlife removal. While my area doesn't have wolves or grizzlies,, we do have black bears. Yet,, thanks to the tree hugger types,, it's dern near impossible to get regulations changed to allow proper, BALANCED controls to where the animals AND people can coexist.
The same goes for the wolves.

I grew up and the idea of an elk hunt or a moose hunt out west was a big dream. Almost impossible except for the rich or the lucky few who lived there & knew the areas very well. The populations of elk, mule deer, moose etc were so low in so many places,, it was beyond the imagination of this young eastern hunter. Heck, even the whitetail deer was almost mythical in it's abilities to evade hunting. Plus,, bag limits were very restrictive.
Thanks to a few things,mm much of that changed as I grew.
Due to the FACT that there weren't any predators,, combined with strict bag limits,, whitetails were able to seriously repopulate all over the country. This allowed more people to hunt,, and bag more deer. It has HELPED us get others to support hunting and gun ownership. Hunters who could care less about AR15's do care about their favorite deer rifle. This is a good thing.
Elk, Mule deer, Moose,, enjoyed similar strict protections & hunting opportunities to where they too have expanded their territories,, allowing more people to hunt,, and again, put more money into the economy and support gun ownership. One of my dreams when I was much younger was to just go on an elk hunt. I've been fortunate enough to have not only hunted them, but to have bagged elk. Plus,, I've participated in the relocation of elk back into NC. (Along with the RMEF.) Something I'd never even considered until the late 1990's. Now we have wild native elk living in NC.

But let's look at the wolf issue.
I recall the long & hard fought battle over re-introducing them into Yellowstone. The tree hugger types CLAIMED they only wanted a specific target number to be there. They agreed to allowing controls over the wolf population once the targeted number was met. Yet,, once it was met,, they refused to accept it,, and fought to keep the wolves protected. The numbers greatly exceeded the targeted projections for the carrying capacity of the park. Some wolves moved out of the park. Elk, deer, moose & other animal populations have declined.
What happens when that happens?
Fewer hunters who are allowed to hunt areas,, for elk, deer etc.
Fewer hunters means less money for the PR act fund.
BUT,, the tree huggers are HAPPY,, because they want to eliminate hunting altogether. They do NOT care if the wolves or bears overpopulate the initial release area,, knowing they will move out of those areas in search of food. When they reduce the elk, deer, moose etc population, hunters also give up hunting and fail to help us fight for our gun rights.

I'm NOT against wolves, bears etc. But as mentioned,, the KEY is to BALANCE things.

Locally, we have Buncombe County where the black bear population is extremely high. High enough to where bear/human encounters can & do happen. Back in the summer,, a local guy was jogging,, and was attacked by a sow. While not life threatening,, he was injured. I have a customer who is kin to the jogger. We've also had several cases of dogs attacked & some killed by bears. And while still rare,, we've even had a woman killed by a bear. The point is,, we do not have a balance of the population. Heck,,, in Buncombe County,, there is a group called; "Save Asheville Bears" that fights against controls & accuses "hunters" of injuring or trapping bears. (The NC Wildlife Commission says otherwise.) Residents feed bears,, & do all kinds of things to prevent controls. And I've even had one lady admit to me that if she could she'd have all the hunters killed & keep the bears.

The point is,, releasing wolves,, or other apex predators in any place,, WITHOUT any defining & pre-set controls to prevent overpopulation in areas when the carrying capacity is reached is just stupid. Yet,, it's another tool to back door remove hunters from the ability to hunt,, which is also part of the tree hugger types goal.

We need hunters, self defense types, patriots & all we can to fight against gun removals & the elimination of the Second Amendment. These tree hugger types say they just want to restore the land to how it was before man eliminated animals in an area is a commendable idea. Yet,, they do NOT want to restrict the animals from going anywhere & doing what they do in nature. Which is kill animals to eat.

On a smaller scale & why I have a job. Several species have been re-introduced into NC & my area. Beavers, otters, come to mind. Now I get paid to fix the problems. Coyotes,, while not re-introduced,, have migrated in, (searching for their own territory & food,) causing problems. And now NC has the Red Wolf re-introduction program. They are putting them in the eastern coastal areas. Yet,, a few have already been tracked outside their "expected" territory. Problems will arise.

Animals need space & food. When they clash with humans,, it becomes a problem. Yet,, many urban or city types do not care or are far removed from such areas,, and they do not see the damages.

Balance is the key. Man can screw that up quite well. Especially the types that are educated by Disney & do not live on the land.
 

BearBiologist

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Messages
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This is a very foolish thing to put out on any forum on the internet. I am not arguing that it happened or not. What I am saying is people will read this and think it's alright to approach sows with cubs. I don't have all the letters behind my name like you do. However I do have common sense that tells me a person might get lucky. The day their luck runs out it's all over. Anyway, no since arguing with a college boy an all.
FYI: I WOULD NOT do it with a grizzly or polar bear (My ex=boss at USFWS is in Anchorage and regularly enters polar bear dens while they "hibernate"). However, black bears are a different animal (DUH!!) and much more tolerant. Also, a male bear is a different story as well=the one "charge" I faced down was a young adult male black bear. You caveat/comment is well taken!! I have been trained and certified in the use of firearms and bear spray as protection from wildlife, certified in bear identification, and trained and experienced in field studies. I also know how to react based on black bear vs grizzly and male vs female black bears. (Most fatalities are from male black bears).

Again, your point is well taken. Associating with "animal people" both professionally and as informed amateurs, we sometimes forget that others don't have the experience we have.

As an aside, just took our pointing griffon to the groomers and there were three bighorns bedded down on the opposing hillside!
 

BearBiologist

Hunter
Joined
Dec 4, 2021
Messages
2,257
I have read all these posts with extreme interest. I work in nuisance wildlife removal. While my area doesn't have wolves or grizzlies,, we do have black bears. Yet,, thanks to the tree hugger types,, it's dern near impossible to get regulations changed to allow proper, BALANCED controls to where the animals AND people can coexist.
The same goes for the wolves.

I grew up and the idea of an elk hunt or a moose hunt out west was a big dream. Almost impossible except for the rich or the lucky few who lived there & knew the areas very well. The populations of elk, mule deer, moose etc were so low in so many places,, it was beyond the imagination of this young eastern hunter. Heck, even the whitetail deer was almost mythical in it's abilities to evade hunting. Plus,, bag limits were very restrictive.
Thanks to a few things,mm much of that changed as I grew.
Due to the FACT that there weren't any predators,, combined with strict bag limits,, whitetails were able to seriously repopulate all over the country. This allowed more people to hunt,, and bag more deer. It has HELPED us get others to support hunting and gun ownership. Hunters who could care less about AR15's do care about their favorite deer rifle. This is a good thing.
Elk, Mule deer, Moose,, enjoyed similar strict protections & hunting opportunities to where they too have expanded their territories,, allowing more people to hunt,, and again, put more money into the economy and support gun ownership. One of my dreams when I was much younger was to just go on an elk hunt. I've been fortunate enough to have not only hunted them, but to have bagged elk. Plus,, I've participated in the relocation of elk back into NC. (Along with the RMEF.) Something I'd never even considered until the late 1990's. Now we have wild native elk living in NC.

But let's look at the wolf issue.
I recall the long & hard fought battle over re-introducing them into Yellowstone. The tree hugger types CLAIMED they only wanted a specific target number to be there. They agreed to allowing controls over the wolf population once the targeted number was met. Yet,, once it was met,, they refused to accept it,, and fought to keep the wolves protected. The numbers greatly exceeded the targeted projections for the carrying capacity of the park. Some wolves moved out of the park. Elk, deer, moose & other animal populations have declined.
What happens when that happens?
Fewer hunters who are allowed to hunt areas,, for elk, deer etc.
Fewer hunters means less money for the PR act fund.
BUT,, the tree huggers are HAPPY,, because they want to eliminate hunting altogether. They do NOT care if the wolves or bears overpopulate the initial release area,, knowing they will move out of those areas in search of food. When they reduce the elk, deer, moose etc population, hunters also give up hunting and fail to help us fight for our gun rights.

I'm NOT against wolves, bears etc. But as mentioned,, the KEY is to BALANCE things.

Locally, we have Buncombe County where the black bear population is extremely high. High enough to where bear/human encounters can & do happen. Back in the summer,, a local guy was jogging,, and was attacked by a sow. While not life threatening,, he was injured. I have a customer who is kin to the jogger. We've also had several cases of dogs attacked & some killed by bears. And while still rare,, we've even had a woman killed by a bear. The point is,, we do not have a balance of the population. Heck,,, in Buncombe County,, there is a group called; "Save Asheville Bears" that fights against controls & accuses "hunters" of injuring or trapping bears. (The NC Wildlife Commission says otherwise.) Residents feed bears,, & do all kinds of things to prevent controls. And I've even had one lady admit to me that if she could she'd have all the hunters killed & keep the bears.

The point is,, releasing wolves,, or other apex predators in any place,, WITHOUT any defining & pre-set controls to prevent overpopulation in areas when the carrying capacity is reached is just stupid. Yet,, it's another tool to back door remove hunters from the ability to hunt,, which is also part of the tree hugger types goal.

We need hunters, self defense types, patriots & all we can to fight against gun removals & the elimination of the Second Amendment. These tree hugger types say they just want to restore the land to how it was before man eliminated animals in an area is a commendable idea. Yet,, they do NOT want to restrict the animals from going anywhere & doing what they do in nature. Which is kill animals to eat.

On a smaller scale & why I have a job. Several species have been re-introduced into NC & my area. Beavers, otters, come to mind. Now I get paid to fix the problems. Coyotes,, while not re-introduced,, have migrated in, (searching for their own territory & food,) causing problems. And now NC has the Red Wolf re-introduction program. They are putting them in the eastern coastal areas. Yet,, a few have already been tracked outside their "expected" territory. Problems will arise.

Animals need space & food. When they clash with humans,, it becomes a problem. Yet,, many urban or city types do not care or are far removed from such areas,, and they do not see the damages.

Balance is the key. Man can screw that up quite well. Especially the types that are educated by Disney & do not live on the land.
Part of my job was conserving and restoring natural habitat (The definition of "restore" is something biologist argue back and forth). We introduced beaver (working with the Yakama Nation) into Satus Creek near Yakima. The do what beavers do: Build dams and make little beavers. Those the bears didn't get grew up and migrated. They ended up restoring 250 miles of creek beds, enabling steelhead trout to return. I was regularly asked to review and comment on Recovery Plans (did the genetic analysis on bull trout trapped above dams). The plans are flexible and adaptive when implemented. The trouble is the "politicos" with agendas (i.e. anti-wolf ranchers buying off congressmen, etc.) and the amateurs (tree-huggers, etc.). Groups like The Center for Biological Diversity are included with the amateurs; we got a petition (and lawsuit) from them requiring us to drop everything and review the status of 262 invertebrates. I got two of them and we determined those two were NOT EVEN a recognized species. The petition was so simplistic as to be laughable, but we had no choice.

BTW: Almost every biologist in my office and the Forest Service Office fished for salmon, flyfished for trout, hunted elk and deer (or, had a spouse who did). One year half of us spent a week elk hunting together! I sold guns to some of them and, as Chief of Recovery trained them in use of bear spray. Point is: The rank-and-file biologists are trained to examine both sides of an issue.
 

contender

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True enough BB!

But sadly,, too many who THINK they know what's best fail to actually understand the actual, on the ground affects & potential problems with human/wildlife encounters.
Here,, we can't have too many beavers due to flooding of farms & roads etc. Otters wipe out small ponds & fish populations. Bears,, well, in the last 10 years,, a LOT of problems have arisen due to the bears.
I should have added to my BALANCE comments to include the necessary wild lands for the carrying capacity. Urban, rural or any human populated areas are where real problems occur.
 

BearBiologist

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Messages
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True enough BB!

But sadly,, too many who THINK they know what's best fail to actually understand the actual, on the ground affects & potential problems with human/wildlife encounters.
Here,, we can't have too many beavers due to flooding of farms & roads etc. Otters wipe out small ponds & fish populations. Bears,, well, in the last 10 years,, a LOT of problems have arisen due to the bears.
I should have added to my BALANCE comments to include the necessary wild lands for the carrying capacity. Urban, rural or any human populated areas are where real problems occur.
Easterners don't understand water issues in the West and Westerners don't understand having too much water like the Easterners have. Heck, we have enough issues here in Washington between Westside and Eastside of the Cascades.
 
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S, S, and S!!!
 

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Or, I knew what I was doing!!
Sound to me like some people with knowledge and experience have a different perspective on situations. We had a herpetologist visit our landowners association every year for an educational seminar. He would pull about a 6 foot rattler out at the end. He had not problem with it. Me, I wouldn't have gone near it.
 

BearBiologist

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Messages
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Sound to me like some people with knowledge and experience have a different perspective on situations. We had a herpetologist visit our landowners association every year for an educational seminar. He would pull about a 6 foot rattler out at the end. He had not problem with it. Me, I wouldn't have gone near it.
Paid for my books in Jr College catching both poisonous (rattlers) and non-poisonous (pet trade) (Mojave Desert). Rattlers went to venom farms. Never did like handling Mojaves=too high strung and made me nervous. Only ever caught a couple! Sidewinders were also high-strung but predictable and had a weak venom.
 

contender

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"Easterners don't understand water issues in the West and Westerners don't understand having too much water like the Easterners have."

True enough for most. In the east we have water in many places,, yet they still want to bring in beavers that build dams & flood other critical areas. And the otters,, with all the local farmers & their ponds that are needed for water for crops,, try & have fish,, but otters wipe them out.
I do know how precious water is out west,, and how it's needed badly in many areas.

But beavers in many places not only flood things they eat a lot of landscaping trees & such.

I know we both agree that the problem is balance. And sadly,, too many people in positions of power,, or who have deep pockets & attorneys,, are educated by Disney.

True story;
Biltmore Forest township, Buncombe County NC. Too many deer. Lots of wrecks & accidents,, combined with landscaping over-browsed and such. People got together & got the township to apply for a State permit to remove a bunch of deer. The State issued a Depredation permit for the removal of up to (50) deer. Recommended that they hire a professional. The township decided to use the town LEO's.
Yet,, ONE woman,, who's husband was an attorney,, filed a petition with the courts to stop it. Back & forth court arguments for a few months. She eventually lost. BUT,, the permit was now set to expire in (2) weeks. The LEO's got a suppressed .44 mag Carbine. (Yes,, it was a Ruger,, as I saw it.) In the (2) weeks they were to try & remove deer,, they managed to kill just (1) deer. Due to the expense they incurred by this ONE woman, who had a law firm at her free disposal, they chose to not try again. Accidents still occur,, and you should see the ugly stuff home owners put around their bushes & shrubs to try & protect them from the deer. Needless to say,, that one woman isn't well liked by SOME of the residents. Others praised her.

No balance & education by Disney.
 

BearBiologist

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Messages
2,257
"Easterners don't understand water issues in the West and Westerners don't understand having too much water like the Easterners have."

True enough for most. In the east we have water in many places,, yet they still want to bring in beavers that build dams & flood other critical areas. And the otters,, with all the local farmers & their ponds that are needed for water for crops,, try & have fish,, but otters wipe them out.
I do know how precious water is out west,, and how it's needed badly in many areas.

But beavers in many places not only flood things they eat a lot of landscaping trees & such.

I know we both agree that the problem is balance. And sadly,, too many people in positions of power,, or who have deep pockets & attorneys,, are educated by Disney.

True story;
Biltmore Forest township, Buncombe County NC. Too many deer. Lots of wrecks & accidents,, combined with landscaping over-browsed and such. People got together & got the township to apply for a State permit to remove a bunch of deer. The State issued a Depredation permit for the removal of up to (50) deer. Recommended that they hire a professional. The township decided to use the town LEO's.
Yet,, ONE woman,, who's husband was an attorney,, filed a petition with the courts to stop it. Back & forth court arguments for a few months. She eventually lost. BUT,, the permit was now set to expire in (2) weeks. The LEO's got a suppressed .44 mag Carbine. (Yes,, it was a Ruger,, as I saw it.) In the (2) weeks they were to try & remove deer,, they managed to kill just (1) deer. Due to the expense they incurred by this ONE woman, who had a law firm at her free disposal, they chose to not try again. Accidents still occur,, and you should see the ugly stuff home owners put around their bushes & shrubs to try & protect them from the deer. Needless to say,, that one woman isn't well liked by SOME of the residents. Others praised her.

No balance & education by Disney.
Another example is the Kaibab in Arizona, north of the Grand Canyon. TR went in and killed all the predators. Nature took over (a little after-the-fact) and controlled overpopulation in her way: starvation and disease. It took decades for the deer (and I think there were elk at that time) to recover. This was what led Aldo Leopold to reconsider the role predators play in population dynamics.
 

kcsteve

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The Red Wolf re- introduction in the Smoky Mountains was a failure. The wolves couldnt get enough to eat. They killed everything in sight. Including cows. They were found 40 miles outside the Park. The project was eventually shut down.
 

WV460hunter

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All the 'greenies' and PITA and other tree huggers putting lots of $$ into this sort of thing w/o any concern over private citizens/ranchers losses or frustration. :(
Not to mention depleting wildlife populations. One must remember that Insurance companies run everything.
They want less animal vs. Automobile collisions so they give money to the Sierra Club and all the tree huggers so they can lobby their idiotic balance of nature bullcrap in the nation's capitol in front of a bunch of people who ain't never been on a farm,ranch or wide open county hunt in their life !!!
 
Joined
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Paid for my books in Jr College catching both poisonous (rattlers) and non-poisonous (pet trade) (Mojave Desert). Rattlers went to venom farms. Never did like handling Mojaves=too high strung and made me nervous. Only ever caught a couple! Sidewinders were also high-strung but predictable and had a weak venom.
Eventually people realized that on the waxed wood floor the rattler wasn't going anywhere. Tension in the room came down quite a bit. The presentation ended with the presenter encouraging people not to kill the rattlers. Said remember your in their territory. But if you have to kill one don't let him go to waste, eat him. The sidewinders remind me of the pigmy rattlers down here. No rattles though. A bite generally will not kill a healthy adult. Make you wish you hadn't been bit. HD a friend bit by one. She went to the ER and they started talking amputation. She said no thanks went home put ice on it, rested for a few days and was out running.
 
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On the beach and in the hills
I don't know. Added a new level when hunting in grizzly country! Realizing you are not top of the food chain sobers you! Like snorkeling with sharks! The first large (5 foot blue) shark I saw while snorkeling looked like jaws!!
Diving with sharks off the SoCal coast never bothered me. We didn't even worry about the dreaded Great White. Jaws hadn't been made yet so we weren't aware that Great Whites exist only to terrorize small tourist towns. But my first encounter with a Tiger shark off the Palos Verdes peninsula changed my perception of of the dangers of diving with sharks. That's a level of diving I would not like to repeat again.
 

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