7 mm Mauser (7x57mm) versus .275 Rigby

[adam12]

What is the appreciable difference between these 2 rounds? Does one have an advantage over the other, and if so, is it more perceived than actual?

I have (and love) a Ruger Model 1 (Boddington Leopard) in 7 mm Mauser. What could be gained by acquiring a similar rifle c chambered in .275 Rigby?

 

[PAShooter]

I believe that they are the same cartridge.

 

[Mobuck]

Very similar. Back in the old days, a company would change the loading of a common cartridge and put their name on the entire round as a way to gain a bigger share of the pie or so they could sell firearms chambered for a common round w/o putting the competition's name on their gun.

 

[adam12]

Are the rounds interchangeable in firearms chambered for one or the other? (Not that I'm thinking of doing it, I'm just curious)

 

[OldePhart]

Very similar. Back in the old days, a company would change the loading of a common cartridge and put their name on the entire round as a way to gain a bigger share of the pie or so they could sell firearms chambered for a common round w/o putting the competition's name on their gun.

Not saying this is the case with these specific cartridges but one should keep in mind that there are a few cases where "new" cartridges were introduced that more or less duplicated the dimensions of an existing cartridge but were rated for higher pressures. Fortunately, there are relatively few of these cases but it's something to check if one considers shooting a cartridge in a different gun...size isn't everything... LOL

 

[Paul B]

Are the rounds interchangeable in firearms chambered for one or the other? (Not that I'm thinking of doing it, I'm just curious)

Absolutely YES! No .275 Rigby rifles have ever been marked as such. :shock: They are marked 7MM Mauser. What Rigby did, and may still do is package ammo marked 7x57 and place a label marked .275 Rigby over the package. I forget if it was over on Accurate Reloading or 24 Hour Campfire but there was a thread that covered thin is great detail. T Rigby would do this so they could charge a higher price for what was commonly available ammo. :x
"Karamojo" Bell, when he used the .275 Rigby to shoot roughly 800 of his 1,100 plus elephants stated that he mostly use German 7x57 full metal jacket ammo, once stating that, "Never did a soft nose bullet ever pollute it's perfect barrel."
The fact of the matter is, the 7x57 and .275 Rigby are one and the same. Hell! Illconfuse the issue a but more. The 7x57, .275 Rigby and the .276 Westley-Richards are all the same cartridge. :shock: What we call 7MM (.284" groove diameter) the Brits call .275/.276 for the bore diameter. Having fun yet?
Paul B.

 

[adam12]

Interesting post, Paul. And thanks for the Bell quote. I read his "Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter" years ago and couldn't recall what caliber he used, although I know it was smaller than should be used on elephant, as a hundred gun scribes have pointed out in the years since.

As a matter of fact, I could swear a good number of them mentioned he used an 8 mm Mauser (8 x 57mm). I say this not to refute you, only to point out how "facts" when in print in many sources over many years have a way of being incorrect.

Also, this underscores my thanks to you for mentioning the Bell quote and emphasizing your answer to my inquiry.

Thanks again, and this is extended to all who contributed.

 

[Paul B]

No, Bell used the .275 Rigby AKA 7x57. Her also use the .303 British IIRC a 450/400 double rifle. He didn't like it all that much because of the recoil. I have his book, "Karamojo Safari."
Paul B.

 

[Paul B]

For those interested, go to accurate reloading and then the medium bore thread scroll down for a good thread on the .275 Rigby.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/3221043

I think you'll find it interesting and informative.
Paul B.

 

[dougader]

Actually, a fellow from Sweden posted on the Single Actions forum a couple years ago asking if someone would order some 275 Rigby brass from quality cartridge co. and then ship it to him in Sweden.

I spoke to the lady at the post office and she could find no regulation saying it is forbidden to ship empty brass cases overseas, so I did it for him.

He said he has an old Rigby rifle that is marked 275 Rigby on the barrel and he'd like to have a few pieces of brass that actually say 275 Rigby, instead of the usual 7mm Mauser that he usually uses.

 

[Mobuck]

W.D.M. Bell used the 7x57(275 Rigby) more than the other cartridges and stated his reason was reliability. IIRC One of his books related a story of shooting up some "unreliable 6.5x54(?)" at cormorants flying up a river channel.
I'm not sure about his use of 8x57 on elephant due to the fact that 8x57 JS used pointed FMJ bullets vs. the 7x57 most often used a 175 grain RNFMJ. Pointed bullets don't "hold course" in flesh and bone as well as round nosed. He may have used what was described as a .318(could have been a Mauser chambered for the older 8x57 J)

 

[Paul B]

W.D.M. Bell used the 7x57(275 Rigby) more than the other cartridges and stated his reason was reliability. IIRC One of his books related a story of shooting up some "unreliable 6.5x54(?)" at cormorants flying up a river channel.
I'm not sure about his use of 8x57 on elephant due to the fact that 8x57 JS used pointed FMJ bullets vs. the 7x57 most often used a 175 grain RNFMJ. Pointed bullets don't "hold course" in flesh and bone as well as round nosed. He may have used what was described as a .318(could have been a Mauser chambered for the older 8x57 J)

I believe Bell's .318 was the .318 Rigby which is very similar to the .338-08 wildcat; the only difference being the diameter of the bullet. The .318 Rigby shot a 250 gr. bullet .327" in diameter to 2400 FPS or a 180 gr. bullet to 2700 FPS, same bullet diameter. As you know the .338-06 shoots a 250 gr. bullet a slight bit faster. Rigby .318 info from African Rifles and Cartridges by John Taylor.
Paul B.

 

[adam12]

Paul - I took your word as Gospel from the get-go. I only mentioned the 8x57 because I recalled other published authors stating it in print, and to show just how these guys get "facts" wrong.

And MANY thanks for all the additional info. Very interesting stuff. It makes you wonder how much of a kill depends on the shooter and how much on the caliber. I mention this because of your inclusion of the .450/400 Bell sometimes used. I happened to watch a video recently from Big Bore Productions, "Death by Double Rifle". The shooter, who made some excellent shots throughout the video with various double rifles/calibers, at one point pumped SEVEN shots from the .450/400 he was using into a Cape Buffalo before the buf was down.

Makes you wonder about how someone like Bell was so successful shooting dangerous game with low-powered (by today's standards) cartridges. He must have been something to behold. Can you imagine how steely his nerves must have been?

Watching the video I also couldn't help but think of Ruark's famous quote, "Use enough Gun!"

 

[OldePhart]

Makes you wonder about how someone like Bell was so successful shooting dangerous game with low-powered (by today's standards) cartridges. He must have been something to behold. Can you imagine how steely his nerves must have been?

My oldest daughter's hubby and I were talking about this the other day. They live in griz country now and we were talking about how so many folks seem to espouse that you can't find a big enough gun to take on the griz...but our ancestors hunted them dang near to extinction with muzzle loaders...

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to go hunting griz without an adequate weapon, and I would want a pretty hefty revolver even for hiking in griz country (though I'm of the camp that believes if you are sensible and careful griz is more interested in avoiding you than eating you). But, at the end of the day, it is shot placement that really matters...and if you're carrying a hand cannon that you can't shoot well you are worse off than with a lighter weapon. A good hit in the right spot with even a humble little .357 (assuming a heavy, penetrating bullet and decent barrel length) is going to be more effective than a miss with a .454 or .480. Again, I'm not going to go hunting griz with a .357, that's not at all what I'm saying and would be frankly foolish, IMHO.

 

[Paul B]

Adam 12. My dream was always to go to Africa and hunt the Cape Buffalo. First I bought a Ruger #1 in .375 H&H. I wanted the hunt to be a test of my nerve. Then I got a deal on a .416 Rigby and finally a .404 Jeffery. The .375 isn't all that much of a problem but that .416 really gets your attention in a hurry. The .404 might be a problem regarding recoil but it came with a muzzle brake and is not all that bad to shoot. Feels like a 30-06 with a very hot 220 gr. bullet load. Probably never get to Africa but I have the guns for the job. :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I do love shooting my #1A in 7x57 with the "Karamojo" Bell level 175 gr, bullets. A real pussycat. 8)
Paul B.

 

[Paul B]

I beg to differ. The 7x57 for one thing has a greater case capacity although it's only about two grains higher than the 7-08. The 7-08 starts to run out of room with some of the 160 gr. bullets and in most rifles definitely runs out of room due to magazine space.
I'm not going to give the load but on another site a gentleman had run 150 gr. Nosler Partitions to 2900 plus FPS. :shock: I had doubts so contacted him for the information which he kindly divulged. He used a Winchester M70 Featherweight and as I have one was basically the reason I asked for the data. That rifle is fast becoming a big time favorite with me. I very carefully loaded up a series of loads starting at 10 percent below his maximum chrongraphing at every load level. Did I reach his 2900 plus velocity? Yes, absolutely and with no pressure signs. Perfectly rounded primers. Case head and pressure ring expansion almost non-existent. His accuracy was good but sad to say might was almost usable. My criteria for a hunting load is 1.5" or less at 100 yards. I prefer smaller as we all do but that grouping is more than sufficient to at least 300 yards, maybe more depending on the animal. That velocity level BTW is 100 FPS faster than Remington factory ammo shot from my 24" barreled .280 Remington.
The big problem with the 7x57 is it is loaded to 45,000 C.U.P./50,000 P.S.I. by the factory in deference to the old weak 93 and 95 Mausers still around. The .280 is also no loaded to it's full potential because Remington first brought it out in pump and semi-auto rifles. I have no trouble getting 3010 FPS average with a 150 gr. Nosler PT in my rifle with IMR7828SSC.
I can easily match 7-08 velocities in any of my three 7x57 rifles, the aforementioned M70, a custom based on a 1909 Argentine Mauser with a DWM action, not one of the later ones made in Argentina. The last one, a Ruger #1A shoots just fine. I did once have a Ruger M77 tang safety in 7x57 and accuracy wasn't all that great till I went with 160 to 175 gr. bullets. Those tangers seem to have been plagued with long throats but would shoot the heavier bullets quite well. The throat on my #1 was so long it had to go back to Ruger. It shoots just about everything quite well now. There is a thread going on over on The Firing Line about lawyered loads. All the lawyers on that site, and three's a bunch are denying that loads are being watered down and I'll not argue one way or the other. I do know that some cartridges are NOT loaded to their true potential for one reason or another; the 7x57, .280 Rem. and 30-06 as three prime examples.
I'm not knocking the 7-08. It's a fine cartridge. I might even buy one, one of these years. :lol:
Paul B.

 

[Paul B]

I'll still differ. I loaded my first cartridge in 1954, had a commercial handloading business for a while in the mid 70's and dropped it because the cost of my liability insurance was higher than my profit margin. I understand why the .280 data has been kept low because of it being chambered in semi-autos yet those same semi-autos were also chambered to the .270 having 10,000 P.S.I higher pressure. If the Winchester M70 0r Remington M700 or any other modern rifle can handle the pressure of the .270, then why can't one of those same rifles also handle a 7x57 loaded to the SAME pressures? To be perfectly frank, a modern rifle in the 7x57 can be loaded to the same pressures usable in the .270 or 7-08. Just there's no data because of the lawyers. I've only seen one article on the 7x57 where the writer came anywhere near loading that cartridge to it's full potential.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Paul B.

 

[Paul B]

Somehow it seems almost mandatory to mention Bell in passing whenever the 7x57 is discussed. :lol: I'm going from memory as I'm too lazy to dig up his book and look it up but IIRC, his load was a 165 gr. full metal Jacket at a velocity to 2250 to 2300 FPS. I did some playing around with loads in that level using 175 gr. Hornady round nose and a few Sierra 170 gr. round nose. Sad to say Sierra discontinued that bullet quite a few years ago. It's a very accurate bullet. I've been giving some thought to doing some kind of hunt with them if I can draw the area I want to hunt. Actually, the thing was to duplicate Bell's load and see just what it could do. Two end results were what I was looking for.
1. Just what was his load like and just how accurate was it?
2. One of he test rifles, a custom FN Mauser shows high pressure much faster than the other rifles.

Long story short the M70 and Ruger #1A did right at 2300 and change, 2315 FPS average between the two. The custom did 2450 FPS with the same exact load of W760. :shock: That rifle delivers almost 2700 FPS with Winchester factory 145 gr. Power Point ammo. I questioned my gunsmith about this and he told me he used a match grade barrel and did a match grade chamber. He said the specs were at the very minimum. I believe him. Loads that are more than safe in the #1 and M70 will lock up the bolt on the Mauser.
One very nice thing about Bell level loads. Recoil is very mild. I can see why he liked them.
I guess I should invest in a Pressure Trace gizmo and see exactly where I'm at but then I'd have to buy a laptop, gads how the money runs out.
Paul B.

 

[opos]

I've got a Mark X (one from Manchester, England) in 7x57 Mauser and It's my favorite rifle...160 grain Sierra with a stiff dose of 4350 and it's just as nice a rifle as ever came down the road. I shoot a 25-06 with a 100 grain and 4831SC about as much but I think the 7mm with a Barnes 120 grain and again with lots of 4350 is just hard to beat. I'd always heard the 7x57 was the same as the .275 Rigby.

 

[Paul B]

"I'd always heard the 7x57 was the same as the .275 Rigby."

It is. Rigby would buy the ammo from Kynock and put their own label on the box. Remove Rigby's label and it would say 7x57. Probably so they could mick the price a bit higher by saying the ammo was proprietary.
Paul B.