44 Special for Grizzly?

[stevemb]

"44 Special for Grizzly". It wouldn't be my first choice , or second, if I were hunting them. It might be carried as a second gun if hunting, or might be packed around camp. I have loved ones and I have a healthy respect for bears. I love these bear threads, though this one very vague, dangled bait so to speak.

 

[CraigC]

I tested the Brenneke slugs in ballistic media. They penetrate about like a 250gr Keith bullet, except they shed a good bit of their weight along the way, 75gr in my test. Which is to say, it may or may not be enough for a big bear. The heavyweight .44 and .45 bullets of 330-360gr and more are far better penetrators and there's no getting around that fact.

I don't care what any under-funded government agency uses. The fact that they use 12ga slugs and would prefer to use .375H&H rifles but can't due to expense is irrelevant to a discussion about handguns.

You guys have presented nothing to refute the notion that a properly loaded big bore revolver is more than adequate. Just uninformed opinion.

I have had several encounters with bears this last fall and now have more real life experience.

How is that relevant? You live in Montana, everybody knows you're better off murdering another human being in Montana than shooting a brown bear. How many bears have you killed? None. You have no business acting as if you're some sort of authority on the subject. All of the Big 6 have been taken with the .44Mag. I'd love to hear the "logic" you used to conclude that cartridges capable of taking everything from 1500lb Cape buffalo to 10,000lb pachyderms are somehow useless against an 800lb bear.

When and if you can draw your gun without slipping on the manure running down your leg and maybe get off a shot before the bear eats you.

You shouldn't judge others by yourself.

 

[BearBio]

Again:

22 long rifles have taken both buff and elephant. Karamojo Bell used a 7mm Mauser (7x57 aka 275 Rigby) for elephant, as did Jack O'Connor's wife on African Game. So, What????

Let's hear more about your (fictitious?) uncle and the brown bears of Florida? Has he killed any elephants there?

 

[MaxP]

Again:

22 long rifles have taken both buff and elephant. Karamojo Bell used a 7mm Mauser (7x57 aka 275 Rigby) for elephant, as did Jack O'Connor's wife on African Game. So, What????

Let's hear more about your (fictitious?) uncle and the brown bears of Florida? Has he killed any elephants there?

Why the resistance to the idea of a handgun being adequate for bear? I don't get it. Everyone gets emotional over this topic and it's always guaranteed to get heated and eventually turn into a big pile of fecal matter. :mrgreen:

I didn't want to head down this road, but here it goes. How many of you, who swear a large caliber rifle is always better medicine for large animals than a big-bore revolver, have actually killed anything large with a handgun? I am not trying to be combative, I would just like to better understand from where your opinions are coming from. Without emotion, defensiveness, or attacking me -- please. Just answer the question and let's discuss like adults. And yes, I know that the OP was designed to stir the pot.

Why do so many assume that because some of us live out east, we have no idea what it is like to be around brown bears? Do you all think we only hunt and spend time outdoors in our home states? Last year, I hunted once, maybe twice in my home state, all other hunts were in other states. I don't get this push back all the time.

There is a complete refusal, it seems, to even consider the possibility that a properly loaded big-bore revolver, in the right hands (this goes for any chosen weapon), is adequate medicine for defensive use against brown bear. Why is that?

 

[CraigC]

Let's hear more about your (fictitious?) uncle and the brown bears of Florida? Has he killed any elephants there?

I am baffled by this notion that one can only hunt in one's home state. People don't travel to other states to hunt? You have to live in Alaska to hunt caribou and bears? You have to live in Wyoming to hunt elk? You have to live in the arctic circle to hunt muskox? Seriously??? I only mention the uncle to dispel this stupidity. He's hunted all over the world. He's been to Alaska several times and almost died when a bear destroyed their camp. He's taken at least three Alaskan brown bears. He's taken at least two muskox. He's taken huge whitetail in Canada. He's taken Cape buffalo and a truckload of plains game in Africa. All that and he's lived in Florida all his life. How is his home zip code relevant??? He's strictly a rifle hunter so his expertise is of little value here but he knows a hell of a lot more about killing bears than YOU.

And because this does not fit with your contrived narrative, now I'm a liar?

You stated on another forum that you've killed ZERO bears. How does that make you an expert on killing bears, with anything??? I don't have an issue debating a dissenting position. What I have a problem with is YOUR effort to discredit those you disagree with based on irrelevant criteria such as state of residence.

You guys are arguing about credibility, when you have none yourself, instead of presenting a credible argument.

 

[mohavesam]

Did anyone say "grizzlies" always means a bear?

 

[BearBio]

Let's hear more about your (fictitious?) uncle and the brown bears of Florida? Has he killed any elephants there?

I am baffled by this notion that one can only hunt in one's home state. People don't travel to other states to hunt? You have to live in Alaska to hunt caribou and bears? You have to live in Wyoming to hunt elk? You have to live in the arctic circle to hunt muskox? Seriously??? I only mention the uncle to dispel this stupidity. He's hunted all over the world. He's been to Alaska several times and almost died when a bear destroyed their camp. He's taken at least three Alaskan brown bears. He's taken at least two muskox. He's taken huge whitetail in Canada. He's taken Cape buffalo and a truckload of plains game in Africa. All that and he's lived in Florida all his life. How is his home zip code relevant??? He's strictly a rifle hunter so his expertise is of little value here but he knows a hell of a lot more about killing bears than YOU.

And because this does not fit with your contrived narrative, now I'm a liar?

You stated on another forum that you've killed ZERO bears. How does that make you an expert on killing bears, with anything??? I don't have an issue debating a dissenting position. What I have a problem with is YOUR effort to discredit those you disagree with based on irrelevant criteria such as state of residence.

You guys are arguing about credibility, when you have none yourself, instead of presenting a credible argument.

:lol:

 

[MaxP]

:lol:

Such a thoughtful response.

 

[CraigC]

You guys are arguing about credibility, when you have none yourself, instead of presenting a credible argument.

My point exactly.

 

[BearBio]

You guys are arguing about credibility, when you have none yourself, instead of presenting a credible argument.

My point exactly.

You DO realize you are quoting yourself to make a point? :roll:

 

[CraigC]

You guys are arguing about credibility, when you have none yourself, instead of presenting a credible argument.

My point exactly.

You DO realize you are quoting yourself to make a point? :roll:

You DO realize that I quote myself because your goofy laughing smilie proves the underlined point, right? You present no credible argument.

 

[jpickar]

You DO realize you are quoting yourself to make a point? :roll:[/quote]
You DO realize that I quote myself because your goofy laughing smilie proves the underlined point, right? You present no credible argument.[/quote]


Do you realize you steeped in your own poop!!! :lol: :lol:
I have shot deer with 45 colt and 44 mag handgun. I am unimpressed.
The 30-30 has more power at 100 yards than a 44 mag. That is printed fact. I know you will argue with me because it is in your DNA to do so. :lol: :lol: But it is printed fact.
I have killed bears. Never had to kill one while it was charging me yet. Almost a couple of times last fall. That is a different ball game.
With your reasoning of how much better a handgun bullet kills than a rifle bullet then it stands to reason that a 12ga. would be even better. Your contradictions are very telling of your lack of experience.
And as to who has credibility? You, your uncle, cousin, best friends dad, whoever can make a trip to where ever and shoot what ever. BUT when you LIVE with the animals you learn and see things from a different perspective you aren't so cock sure about things.
I'm in this now to see how much more of your own poop you step in!!
You are getting really entertaining.
John

 

[CraigC]

Do you realize you steeped in your own poop!!! :lol: :lol:
I have shot deer with 45 colt and 44 mag handgun. I am unimpressed.
The 30-30 has more power at 100 yards than a 44 mag. That is printed fact. I know you will argue with me because it is in your DNA to do so. :lol: :lol: But it is printed fact.
I have killed bears. Never had to kill one while it was charging me yet. Almost a couple of times last fall. That is a different ball game.
With your reasoning of how much better a handgun bullet kills than a rifle bullet then it stands to reason that a 12ga. would be even better. Your contradictions are very telling of your lack of experience.
And as to who has credibility? You, your uncle, cousin, best friends dad, whoever can make a trip to where ever and shoot what ever. BUT when you LIVE with the animals you learn and see things from a different perspective you aren't so cock sure about things.
I'm in this now to see how much more of your own poop you step in!!
You are getting really entertaining.
John

You mean "stepped"? :roll:

You can't be any more specific than "unimpressed"? What do you make of the folks who have taken a lot bigger critters than deer with handguns? Liars???

"Printed fact"??? Printed where? Quantified how? Is that a kinetic energy reference? If you had a clue what you were talking about, you'd know how ridiculous it is to use kinetic energy to determine a cartridge's effectiveness on game. You betray your utter lack of knowledge and understanding on the subject.

Nobody said a handgun kills better than a rifle.

12ga slugs lack penetration, we've been through that. In my testing, a 330gr .44 penetrated 40% better than the vaunted 12ga Brenneke, which also shed 75gr along the way. Do you understand sectional density and how it factors in? Obviously not.

You've never killed a brown bear. Your whole argument is based on one small bear your son killed with a 20ga slug.

One more time, since you seem to be too dense to understand, I only brought up my uncle to counter the absurd notion that one's state of residence has any bearing on this discussion.

Living among bears does not make one an expert on killing them. Period. I don't know how you think it does but it doesn't. The guy that lives in Florida but has taken three brown bears knows more about killing bears than one that lives with bears but has killed none. Raising cattle doesn't make one an expert on killing Cape buffalo.

Again, no argument.

 

[jpickar]

OK, I will again try and explain to you, (really to all the other people who are reading this info for the first time), Shooting a bear or other game that is hunted and not filled with adrenaline is one thing and does not take the destructive power to kill it. When shooting a adrenaline filled bear, or moose that is charging you and intent on taking you out for what ever reason takes a lot more destructive power. Simple physics eliminates handguns and smaller rifles. In spite of you saying the 12ga. can't do the job. It does do it and does it better. Just because you say the Alaska F&G is underfunded and therefore only uses the 12ga. as a result of money and not able to do the job, which is utterly crazy to say, because no warden would use any gun that didn't do the job well, The 12ga slug gun works well.
My two encounters this last year I used Bear Spray first and did not have to pull the trigger on my gun. That said, using your logic, bear spray is better than any gun.

You have refused to listen in the past and I expect you to totally to come unglued again with your irrational rant. But I have put forth information to the readers who do not know what to believe and have no experience, so they can see the reason and logic in my words and glean some helpful info. And you just please keep up your rant as it just renders your words as those of an person with no sanity. :lol: :lol:

John

 

[old greybeard]

Bear defense threads always devolve. Last year I shot a small, 145lb female black bear thru the shoulder and both lungs with a .308 at 50yds. She went down, got up and still ran 300yds thru the woods. I was amazed. They are tough. We have 500-600lb+ monsters in PA. Acclimated to humans, they show no fear.
I'd hunt them with a 44mag, but if one is trying to kill me, as a black bear will, I'd be under gunned.
Best defense for us is our two coon hounds. Let the dogs fight them while we run for cover or a bigger gun.
BTW I carry a glock 23 with 13 rds of Buffalo Bore 200gr flat nose at 1000fps for protection at camp. I'm accurate with it, its light and easy to carry and fast to get in action. Hope I never need it as it would be a last ditch thing.

 

[MaxP]

OK, I will again try and explain to you, (really to all the other people who are reading this info for the first time), Shooting a bear or other game that is hunted and not filled with adrenaline is one thing and does not take the destructive power to kill it. When shooting a adrenaline filled bear, or moose that is charging you and intent on taking you out for what ever reason takes a lot more destructive power. Simple physics eliminates handguns and smaller rifles. In spite of you saying the 12ga. can't do the job. It does do it and does it better. Just because you say the Alaska F&G is underfunded and therefore only uses the 12ga. as a result of money and not able to do the job, which is utterly crazy to say, because no warden would use any gun that didn't do the job well, The 12ga slug gun works well.
My two encounters this last year I used Bear Spray first and did not have to pull the trigger on my gun. That said, using your logic, bear spray is better than any gun.

You have refused to listen in the past and I expect you to totally to come unglued again with your irrational rant. But I have put forth information to the readers who do not know what to believe and have no experience, so they can see the reason and logic in my words and glean some helpful info. And you just please keep up your rant as it just renders your words as those of an person with no sanity. :lol: :lol:

John

I disagree completely. They require adequate penetration and most importantly -- irrespective of weapon chosen for the task -- precise shot placement. All the calculated muzzle energy in the world won't do you a damn bit of good if you shoot whatever is charging you in the gut. Keep in mind that even a .44 mag will make a big hole by default.

You mentioned in another post that you've shot deer with .44s and .45s and weren't impressed. Yup, smaller thin-skinned game is typically much more impressed with fast projectiles, but when game gets big -- 800, 1,000, 2,000 pounds, whatever, they aren't as impressed by velocity as they are by penetration. This is not a dig, as I don't even know you, John, but can I assume you've never shot anything bigger than a whitetail with a revolver?

 

[jpickar]

OK, I will again try and explain to you, (really to all the other people who are reading this info for the first time), Shooting a bear or other game that is hunted and not filled with adrenaline is one thing and does not take the destructive power to kill it. When shooting a adrenaline filled bear, or moose that is charging you and intent on taking you out for what ever reason takes a lot more destructive power. Simple physics eliminates handguns and smaller rifles. In spite of you saying the 12ga. can't do the job. It does do it and does it better. Just because you say the Alaska F&G is underfunded and therefore only uses the 12ga. as a result of money and not able to do the job, which is utterly crazy to say, because no warden would use any gun that didn't do the job well, The 12ga slug gun works well.
My two encounters this last year I used Bear Spray first and did not have to pull the trigger on my gun. That said, using your logic, bear spray is better than any gun.

You have refused to listen in the past and I expect you to totally to come unglued again with your irrational rant. But I have put forth information to the readers who do not know what to believe and have no experience, so they can see the reason and logic in my words and glean some helpful info. And you just please keep up your rant as it just renders your words as those of an person with no sanity. :lol: :lol:

John

I disagree completely. They require adequate penetration and most importantly -- irrespective of weapon chosen for the task -- precise shot placement. All the calculated muzzle energy in the world won't do you a damn bit of good if you shoot whatever is charging you in the gut. Keep in mind that even a .44 mag will make a big hole by default.

You mentioned in another post that you've shot deer with .44s and .45s and weren't impressed. Yup, smaller thin-skinned game is typically much more impressed with fast projectiles, but when game gets big -- 800, 1,000, 2,000 pounds, whatever, they aren't as impressed by velocity as they are by penetration. This is not a dig, as I don't even know you, John, but can I assume you've never shot anything bigger than a whitetail with a revolver?

And thank you for affirming me about big and slow bullets and penetration. The bigger the better. That is why 12ga. slugs are so effective. :shock:
John

 

[MaxP]

OK, I will again try and explain to you, (really to all the other people who are reading this info for the first time), Shooting a bear or other game that is hunted and not filled with adrenaline is one thing and does not take the destructive power to kill it. When shooting a adrenaline filled bear, or moose that is charging you and intent on taking you out for what ever reason takes a lot more destructive power. Simple physics eliminates handguns and smaller rifles. In spite of you saying the 12ga. can't do the job. It does do it and does it better. Just because you say the Alaska F&G is underfunded and therefore only uses the 12ga. as a result of money and not able to do the job, which is utterly crazy to say, because no warden would use any gun that didn't do the job well, The 12ga slug gun works well.
My two encounters this last year I used Bear Spray first and did not have to pull the trigger on my gun. That said, using your logic, bear spray is better than any gun.

You have refused to listen in the past and I expect you to totally to come unglued again with your irrational rant. But I have put forth information to the readers who do not know what to believe and have no experience, so they can see the reason and logic in my words and glean some helpful info. And you just please keep up your rant as it just renders your words as those of an person with no sanity. :lol: :lol:

John

I disagree completely. They require adequate penetration and most importantly -- irrespective of weapon chosen for the task -- precise shot placement. All the calculated muzzle energy in the world won't do you a damn bit of good if you shoot whatever is charging you in the gut. Keep in mind that even a .44 mag will make a big hole by default.

You mentioned in another post that you've shot deer with .44s and .45s and weren't impressed. Yup, smaller thin-skinned game is typically much more impressed with fast projectiles, but when game gets big -- 800, 1,000, 2,000 pounds, whatever, they aren't as impressed by velocity as they are by penetration. This is not a dig, as I don't even know you, John, but can I assume you've never shot anything bigger than a whitetail with a revolver?

And thank you for affirming me about big and slow bullets and penetration. The bigger the better. That is why 12ga. slugs are so effective. :shock:
John

Only if they penetrate well. It's not just a function of "heavy and slow," it's nose profile and material hardness and it's resistance to deformation.

So you are again avoiding my question. Was I correct in my assumption?

 

[CraigC]

Simple physics eliminates handguns and smaller rifles.

Simple physics? Please explain. Because experience has taught me that folks who try to attribute anything related to terminal ballistics with "simple physics" don't have a clue what they're talking about. The bottom line is that you have no clue about how handguns work on big game and base everything you post here on one small bear your son shot for breaking into the chicken coop.

In spite of you saying the 12ga. can't do the job.

I never said that. I said that they are not the Hammer of Thor that people believe them to be. Sure, they blow big holes in deer but everything about the design and construction of a shotgun slug is all wrong for deep penetration on large game. Fosters are way too soft and way too light. They flatten, they deform and they lack the mass for deep penetration. Even the Brenneke Black Magic is light in the loafers. As I said, in my testing, which was fairly scientific, the Brenneke was outpenetrated by 40%. With an angry 800lb ball of heavy fur, muscle, teeth and claws bearing down on me, I want all the penetration I can get.

Just because you say the Alaska F&G is underfunded and therefore only uses the 12ga. as a result of money and not able to do the job, which is utterly crazy to say, because no warden would use any gun that didn't do the job well, The 12ga slug gun works well.

BY THEIR OWN WORDS, they would prefer to issue .375H&H rifles but cannot due to expense. Pump shotguns and slugs are cheap and are a better choice for anti-personnel use.

They use what they are issued, period.

That said, using your logic, bear spray is better than any gun.

If that's your conclusion, then you are not using my logic. I'm not convinced you use any logic whatsoever, borrowed or otherwise.

You have refused to listen in the past and I expect you to totally to come unglued again with your irrational rant. But I have put forth information to the readers who do not know what to believe and have no experience, so they can see the reason and logic in my words and glean some helpful info. And you just please keep up your rant as it just renders your words as those of an person with no sanity.

Unglued? Irrational rant? No sanity?

If the things I post in this thread seem irrational to you, that tells me a lot about the person reading it.

 

[BearBio]

This is getting "Bizarro-Mundo"!