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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:46 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: South Texas
Last couple of days have been pretty busy, did a Redhawk cylinder for a client and the attached crane and related parts were no bother at all. The stainless cut smoothly and evenly and I admit to sweating that a bit. Not much you can do except be sure to use plenty of cutting oil and pay attention. In the end all went all and the client was well satisfied.

Today I received a Colt cylinder from a Client who I have had several conversations with over the past several weeks. This particular Colt 44 Special is clearly very important to him and he was clearly reluctant to send it off to let some yahoo even measure it. Still, finally overcome with frustration he did send it to me. As I expected, his cylinder throats were quite oversize. A .433" minus pin gauge entered and displayed a bit of wiggle in every throat. In some, a .434" gauge would start, a clear indication of a hour glass throat as discussed by my new friend above.

Guys, no matter what forum I go on, I read about complaints of sixgun leading. With sixguns you cannot put the cart before the horse. For the benefit of anyone who has not yet read this, I am going to post this link yet again: http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

My point here is you have to be sure the cylinder is right before you can do anything else. In this case, we can't make the throats smaller. Remember, we are discussing a COLT in this case, not the far stronger Ruger sixgun. As I spoke to my Client, I recommended he try some bullets no smaller than .433" diameter and no heavier than 220 grains. BHN should be 10-12 but NO HARDER. This is important because you are already sending a bullet that is quite a bit over your bore size in diameter and you don't want to squeeze out all the lube groove before it can make it into the barrel. As I was talking to him, I remembered both Taffin and Murbach in the past had made reference to Colt have installed 44-40 barrels on 44 special sixguns. Just to be sure I was giving my new Client the best possible advice I put him on hold and called JT, added him to the conference call, and ran this all past him. Fortunately JT had taught me well and he assured us both that a .433" 10-12 BHN slug would easily pass down a 44-40 barrel with no issues. My client was quite pleased to have a chance to speak to the old man on the mountain himself and I was content to have arranged the meeting. Later in the day, and just because I haven't called him in a while I ran all this past my reloading guru Murbach as well. So, my client is going to try some GAS CHECKED 429215 .433" bullets in his Colt and we will get back to you.

My old friend JT made the comment to my new client that he could remember the days when Fermin didn't know anything.... Some guys wonder why would I help out a complete stranger.... Maybe it's a way of a paying it forward. Maybe you should try it.

Bit of a blessing having resources like these...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:36 pm 
Blackhawk

Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:01 am
Posts: 683
Location: Conifer, Colorado
2 dogs wrote:
A potential client asked me about renting a reamer to save 19 bucks. Here is my response:

Hi, thanks for asking. On the throats there are several issues. First is to know what size the throats are in the first place. That they are too small is not enough. You have to get the diameter to .0005" otherwise your rented throat reamer could "float" about and you will end up with a throat that is off center. Any reamer that has been used "dry" or has been over worked might scar or gouge your cylinder. To properly measure the throats you need a set of MINUS pin gauges. You can't accurately measure the round surface of the throats with a dial caliper for 2 reasons. First, the dial caliper is only accurate to .001" and 2nd, the square surface of the dial caliper will not fit the radius of the throat. The throat reamer should also have a number of pilots in .0005" increments so that you can use the one that fits each throat in order to stay on center. So, if you don't have all those tools send it to me. The rental is 36US and I am at the most 55US and some shipping. So you are out 19 bucks and it is done correctly. Clements, Harton, and the others are all at 75 plus quite a wait.


Just reading thru this thread about the throat reaming and thought I would comment on the pricing and rental . First, for someone to take the time to measure each throat and use the proper pilot for EACH throat and do a professional job of reaming a cylinder for $55 is a bargain .
Second: As a former machinist , I would not and do not ever lend that type of a tool to anyone , you will soon end up with an abused and dull, reamer . Just my 2 cents .


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:22 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: South Texas
Kinda interesting tidbit. 3 of the last 4 cylinders I did came from retired machine tool professionals. Talking with these guys is very enlightening. Working for them is a bit intimidating to say the least...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:26 pm
Posts: 8735
Location: Illinois
My cylinder is back from 2 dogs and it looks great.
He's waiting on a range report from me ..... my reloading buddy is working up some loads.
I'm anxious to shoot it and will report back then!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:28 pm 
Bearcat
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:53 am
Posts: 29
Don't want to beat a dead horse, but I figured since I'm a new guy I'd weigh in. Haven't been around the "customized" world much, but Mr. Garza has done more than I could ask in showing me the ropes. I've currently got Colt SAA I refer to as my Garza Gun because all of the time and effort he's put into it. Great guy to have in your corner.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:26 pm
Posts: 8735
Location: Illinois
2 dogs ..... fired my OM 30 Carbine today after you worked your magic on the cylinder. All is well!

Fit, function and finish are excellent.

Thank you for your excellent work at a very reasonable price!

All the best to you.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:24 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: South Texas
Once again, the whole idea is that I'm not here just to ream this or measure that.

Instead, how about being there through the step by step process to sixgun success.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:27 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: South Texas
I've seen quite a few 32 Magnum Ruger cylinders now. A couple of them evidently had been messed with, but ultimately most of them cleaned up without breaking the owners bank.

On the 30 Carbine Rugers that have sticky extraction what I have done is carefully polished out the machine marks in the chambers and passed along some hand loading tips to the owners and so far so good.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:04 am 
Single-Sixer

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:05 pm
Posts: 160
I will give you a little hint on those cylinders.. 2 things contribute to those tool marks that cause the extraction issues. First is how Ruger reams cylinders. I am not real certain how they do it now on the medium frame guns because those cylinder are night and day better than older ones, but for a long time they gang reamed chambers and throats on a Hitachi machine with 3 cutters, plunge 3 throats, index the cylinder over one hole and plunge the other 3. This method works, but the fly in the ointment is that as the reamers wore down, they cut smaller and smaller holes, and their edges got worn ragged and they left ridges in the chambers. Ruger only replaced those reamers when they got too small to use any further, but they didn't replace all 3, they replaced any that were worn beyond a certain amount, and left the others until they wore down to the point they couldn't be used any more.

Now, after replacing one of the cutters, you have cylinders that have pairs of throats, each reamer cut a pair of throats adjacent to each other, and the reamers being in different states of wear, are different sized and you got two throats that are in spec, cut with a newer reamer, and two more pairs of throats that vary in diameter because those reamers were worn more. Very common to see 44 cylinders with a pair of .432" throats, and two more pairs .429" and .430" respectively.

The 30 carbine cyllinders are no exception, and the ridges left behind by worn out tooling can usually be smoothed out fairly nicely with a finishing reamer, the advantage of doing it this way is that the reamer only cuts the high parts of the ridges, and doesn't usually cut the deep parts so it only actually removes the metal that needs removing. Polishing those ridges often will polish the lower areas between the ridges, making that part larger than it needs to be, depending on what tool you use to polish with. A ball hone hits all the areas, it doesn't distinguish the high spots from the low spots, and you really don't have much control over what it cuts, only that it leaves behind a much smoother chamber than before honing.

Part two of how these awful tool marks and ridges get left in cylinders is because of the steel Ruger uses to make cylinders. This stuff comes in on rail cars in long 2 1/4" rods from the steel mill, special steel to Ruger's specs, but it is granular, tough, inconsistent, and unpredictable whether it will machine smoothly or not. It pulls and tears out, leaves ugly grooves behind a perfectly sharp reamer, I don't care what kind of cutting oil you use, this is some TOUGH TOUGH TOUGH metal! The factory catches the same amount of hell that I catch trying to ream throats and turn them out smoothly, because there are telltale marks left in the harder ones. There is no rhyme or reason to it, one cylinder will cut smoothly, the next one will be a booger bear and think I am going to twist the shank of the reamer right off, and it will leave awful tool marks behind, and the next cylinder will cut like butter. There is no way to tell what you are getting into until you put tooling to it, but you can look in the chambers and if they have lots of tool marks and ridges, THAT cylinder will be a problem child with a throating reamer and it won't be pretty.

These are the cylinders that cause extraction issues and the above paragraphs are how and why they got that way.. 2 dogs is doing you fellas a great service straightening these puppies out. They are NOT fun to do.

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Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throat reaming? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? Shoot me a PM! Also on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cylinderhone-756429174391912/


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:29 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: South Texas
I'm sorry guys, I just have been so busy doing post hurricane clean up it has taken me some time to reply to Doug.

I have actually tried 2 different methods to get those 30 Carbine chambers to behave themselves. Fortunately, both worked. But I think my second method is the better of the two. Looking at the marks, I judged it would take a 400 grit stone or paper to smooth them out. The advantage of the using the die makers stone rather than the paper is that the stone will NOT follow the low spots. The stone will not in any way impact the mouth of the chamber that is so important for the 30 Carbine to headspace correctly. What Doug talks about is going back in the chamber with a new reamer, a brand new sharp finish reamer that will cut about as clean a chamber as can be cut. This is the correct fix for an undersized chamber in my estimation. However, the 30 Carbine chambers I have thus far examined were definitely NOT undersized. Just rough. If Ruger cut them that way, or somebody got in there and tried to do a poor boy fix I cant say.

Doug also speaks to that cylinder throat that will not cut right. I already ran into one of those. Just thinking about cutting that one makes me want to vomit. It was like trying to write on a chalk board with a jagged rock you were holding with your teeth. It felt bad, it sounded bad, and it looked bad. Fortunately for me, I am surrounded with a good number of well experienced tool and die men and some of the very best sixgunsmiths in the USA I can consult with at any moment. Even more fortunate for me, the owner of that particular cylinder was also a very experienced machinist and he pointed out that the material itself was more than likely flawed and the cylinder chambers themselves were improperly aligned and nothing could have been done to correct it. Still, I think if I come across another one like that, I will be trying something different.

I wouldn't hesitate to refer a client to Doug if I thought a job was better suited to his tooling and experience. I am not here to compete. I am here to help my fellow sixgunner be successful with their sixguns. This only works by getting those bullets on target. Thanks Doug.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:58 am 
Buckeye

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: South Texas
I got a cylinder in from a client the other day who missed the "be sure and clean it first" part.

This thing was pretty dirty. I slathered it down in solvent and set it aside to soak and came back and gave it a serious scubbing and soaked it some more and scrubbed it some more till I got it clean. At least I thought I did. When I got it under my bright shop lamp, I could see the throats actually had like a hard carbon build up. I had quite a time getting it out.

So, if your sixgun suddenly quits shooting accurately, and you haven't cleaned it in a while, maybe you better look at your throats under a bright light. Once I got that carbon ring out of the throats, they only required a light cut to bring them into the correct tolerance.

Look at your sixguns guys. You should not have a carbon build up in your cylinder throats. Your barrel should be bright and shiny. You should see a "star" of lubricant on the muzzle if you are shooting cast bullets.

If you are having any issues shooting lead bullets in your sixguns do not hesitate to contact me for help.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:11 am 
Single-Sixer

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:01 am
Posts: 279
Location: Near Harpers Ferry WV
This is a very interesting discussion, and very relevant to my project re-building a beater OMSBH as a gift for my son. Thank you for the education!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:06 pm
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I just got my two buckeye cylinders back from the 2 Dogs Day Spa. The 32 H&R cylinder that Bowen reamed for 327 had one .311 hole and the other 5 just over .312. Great for jacketed, if ya can find them up here but alittle tight for my MiHec gems. The untouched 32-20 cylinder holes were all .311.

Sent the package out on a Friday and received a call with diagnosis Monday evening and spoke six guns for a spell. Received them back that Thursday. Quick and efficient, I would have no problems sending more cylinders to south Texas.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:01 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: South Texas
I am seeing some things that just amaze me. Greg S had a Buckeye 32 cylinder that had been converted to 327 Federal. When we discussed it, I told him I was sure the builder in question had corrected the throats in so much as the Buckeye in all likelihood had a .312" bore. I further explained there was no charge on my part to measure it to be sure and to send it along with his 32-20 cylinder. Well just blow my skirt right over my head if I wasn't completely wrong. This particular gun builder is one who uses .308" bores on his .32 caliber builds. Obviously that seems to work for quite a few people. I just don't understand why, that is if we are already changing the barrel, wouldn't we use the .312" bore????

It most certainly is not my intention to bad mouth a soul. Nor to run down anyones work. I just don't get it.

None the less. I just got another OM cylinder from another client. This cylinder need no correction whatsoever. Total cost 7.15 in return postage. If you are not sure what you have, give me a shout.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:05 pm 
Buckeye

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 pm
Posts: 1624
Location: South Texas
Will you guys who are getting the newest batch of Ruger 32 H&R Bisley sixguns give me an idea how the cylinder throats are looking? Will a jacketed bullet slip through these? Anybody need theirs measured?

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