Cylinde rdifficult to rotate

My gun: Flat top 44 Special, latest design.
The cylinder has become difficult to rotate and sometimes will not rotate.
It seem that the ball detent next to the cylinder pin hole is the problem.
If it is, how do I correct it?
What else might be causing the problem?
Cylinder hand does not seem to be the problem.

Mine locked up completely, twice. The loading gate spring slipped forward and bound it up and prevented cylinder rotation. I ended up replacing the loading gate spring but I found out I could have just bent the end leg of the spring towards the rear a little to cause it to apply more pressure on the loading gate. Either way,it requires a complete field stripping to do. Look in the cylinder window just below the front of the loading gate to see if the end (leg) of the spring is in it`s proper location.

My friend and I each bought one of those in stainless. Mine works fine, but his has the same problem you are describing. I tried to get him to let me remove the detent, spring, and set screw and make it a free spin cylinder to correct his problem, but he won't hear of it, and he won't send it back to Ruger either, so he just has to live with it. I actually prefer a free spin pawl modification, and have it on three of my new models.

Your problem is with the detent. If you will remove the set screw, spring, and detent, you can confirm it, and then reinstall them if so desired, but you may like the free spin cylinder once you try it that way.

Could I have a bit more information on this symptom please? The OP says that his cylinder will not rotate or is very difficult to rotate. Do we know what the correct name for the detent plunger is? The manual calls it the ejector alignment pawl, even though it is a plunger, but it also calls it a cylinder rotation stop. The sales literature calls it a reverse indexing pawl. Maybe that's best since it can be abbreviated RIP.

I think the RIP is a great idea and I don't see the logic in removing it since it increases the ease of loading and unloading. It has to be adjusted correctly to work, just like a lot of other things. Besides, removing it leaves an ugly hole in the breech. Removing the RIP won't give you a "free spin" cylinder. A special pawl ("hand") is needed for that.

The RIP is supposed to be a factory set and forget thing, not something you would take apart for cleaning. Are these things being misadjusted at the factory? The only way I can see that the RIP can stop the cylinder completely is that the adjustment screw can be turned too far, making it impossible for the plunger to be pushed out of the way of the cylinder ratchet pads.

If that's the case, the symptom can be confirmed by simply pushing on the RIP and noting whether it can move to flush or slightly below flush with the cylinder bearing surface. If it cannot be pushed flush, the fix would be to back out the adjustment screw 1/4 turn and be done with it. Note that the adjustment screw, #34 in the diagram, has lock tite on the threads and has to be heated up a bit first. (A hair dryer or heat gun will do.)

Comments?

Carry_Up

Thanks very much for the replies.

I looked at the instruction manual and it appears that adjusting screw #34 requires major disassembly of the gun. Am I correct?
Since screw #34 must be right hand thread, I cant imagine that it would have moved forward of Factory adjustment an increased force on the Pawl.
If any thing it would move back & loosen force on the pawl.
My gun had been functioning correctly for a couple of years.
I suspect the pawl is worn/damaged such that it is difficult for the cylinder to push it back.

Carry_Up said:

Could I have a bit more information on this symptom please? The OP says that his cylinder will not rotate or is very difficult to rotate. Do we know what the correct name for the detent plunger is? The manual calls it the ejector alignment pawl, even though it is a plunger, but it also calls it a cylinder rotation stop. The sales literature calls it a reverse indexing pawl. Maybe that's best since it can be abbreviated RIP.

I think the RIP is a great idea and I don't see the logic in removing it since it increases the ease of loading and unloading. It has to be adjusted correctly to work, just like a lot of other things. Besides, removing it leaves an ugly hole in the breech. Removing the RIP won't give you a "free spin" cylinder. A special pawl ("hand") is needed for that.

The RIP is supposed to be a factory set and forget thing, not something you would take apart for cleaning. Are these things being misadjusted at the factory? The only way I can see that the RIP can stop the cylinder completely is that the adjustment screw can be turned too far, making it impossible for the plunger to be pushed out of the way of the cylinder ratchet pads.

If that's the case, the symptom can be confirmed by simply pushing on the RIP and noting whether it can move to flush or slightly below flush with the cylinder bearing surface. If it cannot be pushed flush, the fix would be to back out the adjustment screw 1/4 turn and be done with it. Note that the adjustment screw, #34 in the diagram, has lock tite on the threads and has to be heated up a bit first. (A hair dryer or heat gun will do.)

Comments?

Carry_Up

Click to expand...

Sure.

If you have a mid frame flat top remove the cylinder take a good look at how the pawl lies in relation to its recess. It is engineered differently. The other Blackhawks require a different pawl or a pawl modification to free spin the cylinder. Unlike the other Blackhawks, the mid frame Blackhawk flat top pawl does not index the cylinder ratchets for loading, thus the detent that does the job instead. That is why the cylinder's chamber's are aligned differently in relation to the loading gate. If the pawl were engaging the ratchets as is the case with the other Blackhawks, that would not be possible. The pawl on this design remains out of contact with the ratchets after hammer fall. Remove the detent from the equation, and .......

Thanks for the extra information cadillo. The OP indicates that his SA is the latest design. As far as I know every SA of the "latest design" has the RIP detent plunger feature in the breach. His words, "the ball detent next to the cylinder pin hole". The OP is not complaining about the alignment of the chambers, instead he says his cylinder won't rotate at all.

If you solved some problems by removing the plunger completely then great. My point is simply that by backing off on the spring tension on the RIP, that the cylinder would be free to move. On the Vaquero, you can actually get to the adjustment allen screw with no dis-assembly at all. On the other hand, the whole problem could really be that the loading gate spring has popped out of place, as was suggested above. Some photos would clear up the confusion in this thread.

Carry_Up

The loading gate spring had not popped out of place.
Disassembled the gun and found that set screw #34 was loose and appeared backed out. No or negligible Loctite. This should have meant less force on the indexing pawl and easier rotation. Instead, rotation was worse!!!!! The gun had not been taken apart before.
Going to examine the indexing pawl under a microscope for wear or damage.

Carry_Up said:

Thanks for the extra information cadillo. The OP indicates that his SA is the latest design. As far as I know every SA of the "latest design" has the RIP detent plunger feature in the breach. His words, "the ball detent next to the cylinder pin hole". The OP is not complaining about the alignment of the chambers, instead he says his cylinder won't rotate at all.

If you solved some problems by removing the plunger completely then great. My point is simply that by backing off on the spring tension on the RIP, that the cylinder would be free to move. On the Vaquero, you can actually get to the adjustment allen screw with no dis-assembly at all. On the other hand, the whole problem could really be that the loading gate spring has popped out of place, as was suggested above. Some photos would clear up the confusion in this thread.

Carry_Up

Click to expand...

He says that his gun is a flat top, which is in fact the latest design. I hope that you are not suggesting that I believed that he was complaining about the alignment of the chambers with the loading gate port, because I never stated anything that would suggest it. What I did say was that the new design came about in order to align the chambers directly in line with the loading gate port, which is not the case with the previous mechanism.

I also know that his problem is proper cylinder rotation, which as I've previously stated, I have seen and experienced first hand in a gun other than my own. In the flat top example that I disassembled in an attempt to sort out the same problem, once I removed the plunger spring, and set screw, the cylinder did in fact free spin proving that the plunger is in fact the source of the gun's malfunction. I have an approach that I think will mitigate the OP's problem, and will direct it to him.

hmeier4799 said:

The loading gate spring had not popped out of place.
Disassembled the gun and found that set screw #34 was loose and appeared backed out. No or negligible Loctite. This should have meant less force on the indexing pawl and easier rotation. Instead, rotation was worse!!!!! The gun had not been taken apart before.
Going to examine the indexing pawl under a microscope for wear or damage.

Click to expand...

As I stated before, "Your problem is with the detent. If you will remove the set screw, spring, and detent, you can confirm it, and then reinstall them if so desired, but you may like the free spin cylinder once you try it that way." But, like many others, you probably prefer to have the gun operate as designed rather than having a free spin cylinder, and I can certainly appreciate that. I would suggest however, that since you have it apart, why not install the hammer, pawl, base pin, and cylinder without the detent, spring, and set screw in order to confirm to your satisfaction that the detent is in fact the source of your troubles. You will at least then know for sure where you need to focus your efforts.

Having examined a gun exhibiting the same problem, I believe that when the machine work was done on the receiver, the step on which the shoulder of the detent rests within its pilot hole was machined just a little too deep, thus allowing the detent to protrude too far beyond the recoil shield, this providing too much engagement with the cylinder ratchet. This excessive protrusion and engagement will then not allow the ratchet to depress the detent back into its pilot hole and free the ratchet when the cylinder attempts to rotate.

I believe that it's possible though unlikely that Ruger may have some detents made with a shorter nose in order to address this problem with guns returned with this condition, but again I consider it unlikely. If the gun were mine, and I wanted to retain the indexing feature, I would measure the length of the detent with a micrometer, and the carefully reduce the length of the protruding nose by a few thousandths at a time, trial fitting and testing as I went along. I would maintain the same round curvature of the nose to insure proper interaction with the ratchets. I would do that by chucking the detent in a drill and holding its nose against some 320 or finer wet dry paper, and then finish on a piece of leather to maintain a smooth finish. I would do this slowly and in small increments testing for function along the way.

Please let us know what you do and how it works out!

I examined the cylinder indexing pawl/plunger with a microscope and found no damage or wear. Since I found #34 set screw loose, I believe that effected the indexing pawl and caused the cylinder being difficult to rotate.
Removal of the set screw, spring and pawl resulted in free spinning of the cylinder.
Will use it that way for now.

Thanks cadillo, that makes perfect sense to me. If the step was machined too deeply, (or the plunger dimensions were incorrect), then the plunger would interfere with the cylinder ratchet no matter what tension is placed on the spring.

One approach to getting this problem fixed might be to grind off a tiny amount from the plunger tip, re-contour and re-polish. (Order a couple more plungers in the mean time.) I will take a guess that the contoured part of the plunger tip ONLY should protrude. Otherwise the cylinder ratchet will strike the side of the plunger and stop - just as you describe.

Carry_Up

hmeier4799 said:

I examined the cylinder indexing pawl/plunger with a microscope and found no damage or wear. Since I found #34 set screw loose, I believe that effected the indexing pawl and caused the cylinder being difficult to rotate.
Removal of the set screw, spring and pawl resulted in free spinning of the cylinder.
Will use it that way for now.

Click to expand...

You may actually come to like that mode of operation over time. I have three of my Bisley's modified for free spin, but left my Flat Top .44 hog leg with the detent in place for operation as designed, at least for now. The free spin feature really speeds up and eases loading and unloading though.

If you do later manage to fix the detent problem, let us know how you approached it, and how it turned out.

I will try to explain the situation, even though confusing..
I removed the cylinder indexing plunger and used the gun in Free Spin mode.
After a while I could not rotate the cylinder (Gate open).
Disassembled then installed the Hammer, pawl, base pin & cylinder without the pawl plunger. With the muzzle up such that the pawl falls away from the cylinder I can rotate the cylinder as expected. With the muzzle down such that gravity brings the pawl towards the cylinder I can not rotate the cylinder.
The cylinder somehow locks against the pawl instead of pushing it back as on my old SBH. Can not find why the cylinder will not push the pawl back even though there is no spring force restricting the pawl from moving!!!!
I hope somebody has an answer.

Have you changed the grip frame in any way? I did notice when I had one of mine (with the reverse indexing pawl) apart ,that the grip frame has a recessed area where the tail end of the cylinder pawl drops into when the loading gate is open.
That may be an area to look at.
If it were me,I would have Ruger do the fixin. There may be some mismatched parts involved here. Those issues can always be a brain twister. Good luck. Chuck

"the grip frame has a recessed area where the tail end of the cylinder pawl drops
into when the loading gate is open."

Thanks, very interesting. Will check next time I look at it.

The Gate detent spring is correctly in place when the cylinder can not be rotated.
The cylinder indexing plunger is not installed.
Cylinder can not be rotated with or without grip frame installed.
It just seems to be interference between the cylinder detents and the pawl instead of functioning normally.

hmeier4799 said:

The Gate detent spring is correctly in place when the cylinder can not be rotated.
The cylinder indexing plunger is not installed.
Cylinder can not be rotated with or without grip frame installed.
It just seems to be interference between the cylinder detents and the pawl instead of functioning normally.

Click to expand...

I share your pain--my 41 mag just died the same death.

I've had my grip apart from the frame to do spring work--but have never removed the trigger pin and pulled that assembly apart. My problems began when I noticed it was difficult to remove/replace the cylinder for cleaning. it was noticeably difficult to line up properly with the cylinder pin. Then I noticed the trigger was getting sticky--especially when you tried to decock the hammer after cocking it--it would hang up in a "half-cock" position and had to be pushed in order to fully de-cock.

Long story short--near as I can figure out once the pawl and detent are slightly out of alignment--the cylinder will never properly line up or index/rotate. The accuracy of my shots took a nosedive prior to the cylinder lock-up--probably as a result of the cylinder being off in alignment to the barrel. I had a 44 mag super blackhawk hunter which I did a similar trigger job on and it shot for years without a hitch. Seeing how "loosey-goosey" the trigger and hammer assembly is inside the frame it doesn't surprise me that this problem pops up fairly frequently judging by all the hits I got googling for it.

PS: got my 41 SB working again after taking it apart--wasn't all that hard except it took a bit to figure out how to hold the detente spring down with a screwdriver while at the same time hammering out the trigger pivot pin with a drift by myself : )

I think a lot has been learned about the newest versions of the Vaquero, etc, in the last few weeks. In the interest of describing the causes of cyclinder lockup correctly, I simply offer the following comments along with those in other threads.

hmeier4799 said:

I will try to explain the situation, even though confusing..
I removed the cylinder indexing plunger and used the gun in Free Spin mode.
After a while I could not rotate the cylinder (Gate open).

Click to expand...

This description shows clearly that the reverse indexing plunger has nothing to do with the cylinder lockup problem. Apparently, some have removed the r.i.p. and magically the cylinder frees itself up. This result is completely accidental and misleading. There are many other ways to confirm it, but by simply applying some felt marker or ink to the cylinder ratchet, you can trace the exact course of the r.i.p. It rides up and down on the inner curved surfaces between each ratchet. I think the r.i.p. is a good feature and it works well, unless you MUST have a free spinning cylinder.

Disassembled then installed the Hammer, pawl, base pin & cylinder without the pawl plunger. With the muzzle up such that the pawl falls away from the cylinder I can rotate the cylinder as expected. With the muzzle down such that gravity brings the pawl towards the cylinder I can not rotate the cylinder.

Click to expand...

There. It can't get more obvious than this. The real problem is that in this model (as pointed out by cadillo) the pawl is supposed to withdraw completely from the pawl window. The pawls in these locked up guns are NOT retracting completely because they are not being adjusted correctly at the factory. Thus, the very top inside corner on the upper pawl shelf is jamming against the cylinder which prevents forward cylinder rotation. Since the cylinder won't reverse with the r.i.p. installed, that part is working normally.

The cylinder somehow locks against the pawl instead of pushing it back as on my old SBH. Can not find why the cylinder will not push the pawl back even though there is no spring force restricting the pawl from moving!!!!

Click to expand...

The reason is that on the newest models, the top pawl step sits much lower on the ratchets (~7 o'clock) and cannot be pushed back as it can if it sits higher (~8 to 9 o'clock). The fix is to clearance the top inside corner of the top pawl step. This work is shown clearly in the J.K. manual and on various web sites. I might even add that the work can be done without disassembling the gun, since such a small amount of clearancing is needed.

It would certainly be interesting to know the real reason why these changes were made to the already reliable SA pawl and r.i.t. design. I don't buy the idea that it was to make these models "free spin ready" (or some such advertising term.)

CU