You have trouble seeing the sights?

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Mobuck

Hawkeye
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Dec 25, 2007
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I drove Son to pick up his new work vehicle yesterday and we stopped at a gun emporium where I'd never been. Son was looking at/for a newer, smaller carry pistol and wanted to compare sizes with the G2C I carry. After asking the counter guy if it was OK to draw my pistol, I laid it on the counter next to the new guns for comparison.
Another customer noticed, saw the Viridian laser, and voiced the question. I ignored the remark but counter guy immediately commented "A shooter using a laser has no excuses since it's absolutely clear whether he's holding on target or not. The laser doesn't lie."
 

kmoore

Blackhawk
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Mar 29, 2017
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Part of the idea of a small CCW handgun is short length between front and rear sights which makes most difficult to see clearly. Many CCW guns have smaller/lower front sights and some no rear sights so the gun when drawn does not get hung up. All to be used at close range and really at 5-7 yards and no need for any sights. The last thing I would ever do in a close up gun fight was to make sure the sights or laser is lined up. But I also am a high volume shooter and practice shooting SD type drills with 1 hand, both hands and weak hand. Gun at waist and gun partly extended. At 7 yd it is fully extended and flash sighted when gun is lined up fire. No need to any sights.
I understand lasers are popular with some and I have one on a pocket carry .380, mainly do to working at night. When I sighted the laser in, I watched the dot closely. Ever since I just point and shoot. No reason to try to find the dot before shooting, I know where the bullet is going.
My opinion using a laser can be a handicap at close up fast shooting with in a SD encounter. If you want or need precision than they work great. I have read or watched after action interviews with many cops over many years. If asked about the sight picture in close up gun fights, no one as I recall ever remembered taking the time to use sights. It's all extinctive or flash sight, even gun held at waist like the TV shows cowboy gun fights.
Now if your taking about gun fights or practice at 15-25 yds. Sights of any kind tend to be important and time tends to be more in your favor to line up before pulling the trigger. I am 65, wear bifocals and have a hard time with crisp sight images but still shoot 100% most of the time. Muscle memory and practice must be developed than shooting at human size targets is not so tough.
 

Mobuck

Hawkeye
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I've used laser equipped handguns as training aids for decades. The laser tells all in regards to steadiness of hold and movement during trigger pull/break.
It's extremely embarrassing to surreptitiously hand someone a pistol loaded with a snapcap and watch the laser jump up/down/sidewise at the moment of trigger break.
 

kmoore

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Yes they are good training aids, I agree. For Self Defense at close ranges not so much.
 

blume357

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I have a lot of lasers on a lot of guns but I fall back on what I've said here many times... one should never ever totally rely (and I mean your life) on electronics. Back when I was taking coastal navigation that is what was firmly drilled in.... if you only rely on electronics to know where you are and something goes wrong... you are screwed. No different in a gun... you better know how to use the sights and also that the likely hood is you will not even have time to do that.
 

Jeepnik

Hawkeye
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Dec 16, 2005
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5,067
I have lasers on several handguns. Once properly adjusted they make sighting much easier for my old eyes. I haven't tried green yet but some folks swear by it. I've also been considering one of the small red dots that have shown up. Since I usually carry OWB cross I don't think the extra bulk would be much of an issue.

One thing I will never do is hang a flashlight on my pistol. Makes just too darned good of an aiming point. I always get a kick out of shows where the good guy is wandering around with his weapon mounted light on and the bad guy is sitting in the dark. I wonder just who would make his first shot count. The guy shooting at a nicely lit target or the guy trying to shoot at someone in the dark.
 

Mobuck

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"Since I usually carry OWB cross I don't think the extra bulk would be much of an issue."
I agree that you won't notice the extra. I carry crossdraw positioned just in front of my left hipbone. The only thing that makes the gun noticeable is a long(er) grip. The dot on top won't make much diff.
I had to make a choice between the two and since I'd been carrying an SP101 with a laser, I decided I wanted that option for the G2C. I didn't find my primary choice but can live with what I did find.
 

blume357

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Red dots are great... I have one on a Sig P320 carry that I will be taking to Front Sight with me in a month. This is the factory Romeo sight..... and you can still use the iron sights on the gun if need be. But like I said, I would never presume to rely on either this or a laser ..... my experience in this life is the battery will fail at the worst time. I took this pistol with the the last time I went there and it was great..... amazingly the battery failed 20 minutes before I had to take the qualification shooting test and I had time to change it out.

Not only will I say that for an actual light on the weapon.... and I have been dressed down and reamed on another forum for saying putting a flash light on a handgun is stupid... I still believe it for most folks is a mistake.... most gun owners in a stressful situation will violate one of the cardinal rules of safe gun handling with something like this... I suspect people will use these at night when they hear a noise and go looking around.... in other words you will be pointing your gun in all kinds of directions looking for the bad guy.... nature will also have them having their finger on the trigger ... and then their daughter who was taking the dog out to do his business comes back around the corner....that 7lb pull on the trigger is closer to a 1/2 pound with adrenaline pumping through you.

those that dressed me down pointed out that many LEO's now have lights on their handguns and this is perfectly safe... But keep in mind, at least in theory, all these officers have been trained on how to use their weapon with a light on it. And the training I will presume was not a 30 minute lecture.....

Most gun owners do not have the time or resources to get the same training that 'we' pay those sworn to serve and protect us to take. I actually can manage to get a tad more than most folks but still......
 

kmoore

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I only know of LEO flashlights as having a on/off button that is a push on release it's off. Unless you double click it.
After 26 years of yearly night firing, almost every firing line of new and well seasoned cops
someone will hold the light on or double click it and it stays on. Training is light on to ID target, shoot and release or turn off light. Just the stress of night shoot training and doing several things at once some still fail. I or another range master yelling "turn that damn light out." You think a untrained CCW holder will do better?
As mentioned the movie stars walking around with lights on weapons. As always the movie and tv shows are there for enjoyment not real life. I do laugh at that stuff and all the lights they put inside space helmets or when ever someone is trying to be tactical they drive up into danger with vehicle lights on, get out leaving them on and many times walk across the head light beams all the time sneaking around like their invisible. That's entertainment not to be confused with real life.
 

vito

Hunter
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Jan 2, 2005
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2,676
I can easily see situations where one will have to shoot from the hip, and the laser sight will make this much easier to do so effectively. I have a laser on every one of my carry guns.
 

Mobuck

Hawkeye
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"I can easily see situations where one will have to shoot from the hip,"
Not necessarily 'from the hip' but most certainly possible to fire 'directed' shots w/o being able to see the sights.
For several years, I did not have any dogs on the place and had a big problem with varmints coming right up on the porch raiding the cat food pan. To address this issue, I had a laser mounted on a 22/45 pistol. I could simply open the back door a crack, stick my hand & pistol out, and fire on the raiding critters w/o stepping out which would have sent them scurrying.
The laser is a tool that can augment sights and allow better aiming under some conditions. I decided a laser was a better option for my use than a 'dot' sight since it doesn't interfere with the original sights. In the only SD confrontation I've had in recent history, the activation of the laser sent the culprits running which was a perfect solution IMHO.
 

blume357

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As I've mentioned numerous times before here.... I've taken two force on force classes (wish I could take another) and in the majority of the scenarios they put you in, there is little to no time to aim. You pretty much have a split second to decide whether to use deadly force or not.... in fact now that I think about it, in the ones where you were not supposed to you really had time to think.
 

kmoore

Blackhawk
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Like I mentioned, sights of any kind on any handgun likely will not be used in a Self defense situation. As in a close up attack where most are at, that is only several steps away, 2-3 yards or talking distances. You are already likely reacting to the threat. Action is always faster than reaction. You are already at a disadvantage. Speed is #1, using anytime to line up a dot or gun sights is a waste of that short amount of time. It's not seconds that count, how about 100ths of a second.
Now if the threat is at a stand off distance of say 15 yards or farther and not rushing you. Take the time to use what ever sights are you have. That's likely not going to be a SD distance unless you wear a uniform.
Remember the 21 foot rule and the 1.5 seconds that has been used in court. 21 feet away when you understand the threat is coming, many cannot draw, fire and stop the attacker before he is grabbing/stabbing/punching or fighting for your gun, to take it away and shoot you.
 

blume357

Hawkeye
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Watch the video of that latest church shooting and the second guy being shot fumbling for his weapon and it drives home the need for extreme practice and total muscle memory.

I'm looking at the numbers for the qualification test at Front Sight and they do give you 1.8 seconds to draw from concealed and put two rounds in center mass 9ft away. Heck they even give you 2.1 seconds at 21ft.
 

kmoore

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Those are realistic times and hard to do.
We tried to get cops to draw and fire 1 round from a duty holster into the 5 ring in 1.5 seconds, many cannot. Most get to about 2 seconds when practicing. Been 10 years so I cannot remember if it was 3 or 5 yd distance.
 
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
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vito said:
I can easily see situations where one will have to shoot from the hip, and the laser sight will make this much easier to do so effectively. I have a laser on every one of my carry guns.

I suspect your trigger control will be different than you are used to while holding the pistol extended. I strongly suggest you practice this a lot before you try to use this technique when the results are important.
 
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
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kmoore said:
Like I mentioned, sights of any kind on any handgun likely will not be used in a Self defense situation. As in a close up attack where most are at, that is only several steps away, 2-3 yards or talking distances. You are already likely reacting to the threat. Action is always faster than reaction. You are already at a disadvantage. Speed is #1, using anytime to line up a dot or gun sights is a waste of that short amount of time. It's not seconds that count, how about 100ths of a second.
Now if the threat is at a stand off distance of say 15 yards or farther and not rushing you. Take the time to use what ever sights are you have. That's likely not going to be a SD distance unless you wear a uniform.
Remember the 21 foot rule and the 1.5 seconds that has been used in court. 21 feet away when you understand the threat is coming, many cannot draw, fire and stop the attacker before he is grabbing/stabbing/punching or fighting for your gun, to take it away and shoot you.

In my experience as a NRA certified pistol instructor when the Schuler drill is done, many can't fire a drawn gun and of those who do fire in time most will miss. Even experienced shooters usually miss.
For those who actually practice the Schuler drill, success rates are much higher. I suspect the need for speed causes them to jerk the trigger and realistic practice reduces the magnitude of the trigger jerk.
1.5 seconds to draw and fire is more challenging than most people know. Using a shot timer will show just how slow you really are. When I practiced fast draw, I believed I was doing much better than I really was. Then I bought a shot timer and found out just how much time is lost when reacting to the ding.
 

kmoore

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991
I agree that many will jerk the trigger when attempting speed shooting. That's why training is so important. A person, any person needs to start slow and work up all shooting skills before speed is attempted. Like when we were young we learned how to walk way before we could run. I normally post information that is perhaps out of many on here's current capability. Nearly everyone of my posts mentions practice, train, learn. Most should have a instructor to learn and then continue to get better only by 1,000s of rounds fired and dry fired. Sitting behind a computer reading will never make a quality shooter.
 

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