WHY DO WE RE-INVENT THE WHEEL?

[358Win]

WHY DO WE RE-INVENT THE WHEEL?
THE 338WINCHESTER MAGNUM

If I could just have a rifle and cartridge that had no more than a 24” barrel, with the receiver no longer than a standard 30-06 length, producing reasonable recoil that could push a 200gr bullet at 3025-3075fps, a 210gr bullet at 2980-3010fps, a 2225gr bullet at 2850 - 2900fps, a 250gr bullet at 2800 - 2820fps, a 275gr bullet at 2670 to 2700fps and a 300gr bullet 2500-2550fps, manufactured by 90% of the major gun companies, WOW!!!

I could take everything from deer to the largest Alaskan Brown bears. It would not destroy meat anymore on the smaller size big game like white tail deer than would a 130gr bullet out of a 270. It would buck the wind at distances most hunters would consider reasonable and with plenty of energy to anchor anything in North America and most of Africa out to 400yds. Also, with some bullets and loads in the right hands, it could be effective a lot farther than 400yds.

Of course you know us here in America when it comes to rifles and cartridges, we are constantly re-inventing the wheel. Why do we do this? I am sure you all have your beliefs and even evidence to support your understanding of why this takes place every so often with rifle and cartridge companies. Give us a few more years and there will come the next line of new wonder cartridges and their platforms. Again these will be marketed as being better than what went before or the next best thing to sliced bread. The prevailing attitude will be only the engineers, rifleman, and hunters of today really know what is best as if those in the past were uninformed or miss led or just not as intuitive.

Why??? It is beyond me why we re-invent the wheel every 5 to 10 years, when there has been one that fits my above description since 1959, the 338Win Mag. Easy to load for, accurate, reasonable recoil if stocked correctly and hits like a hammer, along with velocities that are perfect for the big game bullets manufacture for the .338 caliber. As one friend of mine said, “with the 338Win Mag you could kill everything from mice to Moose and even a big mean spirited bear up close.” He ought to know since he and others have used used the 338Win Mag on the above and so his figurative speech describing the 338Win Mag is appropriate.

Most you know or at least should know that a 30-06 with a 180gr bullet has been and is very affective in most situations and on most game given proper circumstances much less the 300Win Mag using a 180gr bullet. In light of this fact a 338Win Mag’s using a 250gr bullet, has a striking energy that is around 25% greater than that 30-06 with a 180gr bullet. Also, the 338Win Mag and 300Win Mag along with the 300Wby are in the same neighborhood when it comes to energy. Yet the 338Win Mag's cross-sectional area is 20% greater with a momentum factor that allows for greater penetration due to 70grs greater weight.

It has tremendous potential as an all around big game cartridge from small deer to the largest and toughest game in North America. It is a tremendous medium bore with great legs. What do I mean by saying great legs. It is a true sprinter with endurance and has a hard quick crushing blow, that hits like a heavy weight. There is a great selection of suitable bullets from 180grs to 300grs to meet any scenario. With this selection of bullets, one could imagine them selves in a sequence of possible events as a North American hunter and feel with confidence that they were well armed. It can be down loaded to 338RCM, 338-06 or 30-06 levels and still produce excellent accuracy attesting to it's real versatility.


On smaller species of big game we have with the 338Win Mag 180gr to 225gr bullets. In this weight class there is the 210gr Nosler Partition, that is good on smaller game, while being the exception in this group due to the fact it is also highly effective on the larger species of big game. The 210gr Partition with velocities between 2980fps and 3010fps with very good accuracy is a flat shooting, hard hitting combination that really allows the 338Win Mag to stand out as a longer rang load while still being devastating up close.

Of course for the really big stuff the 250gr due to the great bullet shapes available is a real game getter for sure. The 250gr to 300gr bullets in the 338Win Mag do not have to apologize, nor are they inferior for any of the tasks handed them when taking big game.

I had to pick up my 338Win Mag which I had stored away after only firing 15 rounds through it because I was so busy with other projects, namely my 257-300Wby. As I said, I am using it to hunt with this year due to problems with two of my rifles, my 30-06 and my 300Wby. I have owned and shot the 338Win Mag some 20 years ago but did not hunt with it nor reload for it. Well, I am doing both this year and that is why I have written this article. I am beginning to discover what some great hunters and guides have known for years about the 338Win Mag and I really like what I have found so far in briefly reloading for the 338Win mag.

Looking forward to using it in the field and have the experience of taking game with a fine Medium bore cartridge.

 

[Jeff Quinn]

It is indeed a fine cartridge, and would serve well for most anything, but I sure like variety. What would I put in three gun safes if one rifle is all I had?

 

[gewehrfreund]

I think the simple (maybe simple-minded?) answer to your question is a real or imagined need by rifle and ammunition makers to create new market share for their products. And let's not forget easy fodder for the less creative gun rags;-)

 

[VAdoublegunner]

I agree, the .338 WinMag is a great cartridge. If I lived in Alaska I would have one for sure.

Since I live in the lower 48 I find that a .300 Win Mag serves most of my needs for the same reasons you mentioned about the 338. It's not a particularly difficult cartridge to shoot. My rifle is a Winchester Model 70 Classic in Stainless steel with a Featherweight walnut stock and I don't find it to have particularly hard recoil in the least. With light bullets it will reach out flat and fast, but still carries good velocity with heavy bullets at a distance.

Or from even further back to 1896, a 6.5x55 Swedish does quite well for about anything unless real long distance power is needed. Really easy to shoot and quite effective, unless maybe you are after big coastal bears. It's used quite often in scandinavia for moose to good effect with heavier bullets and they can be one tough and ornery critter. At its fast twist rate those long heavy bullets act like drills!

 

[358Win]

They are playing to the young progressive type that really believe change is better, and new is wonderful and better. I am glad they have new stuff but at the neglect of the already proven stuff is a sore with me. They have also been told that these newer cartridges are more accurate.

Well I would agree to folks liking new stuff but none of the new cartridges hold accuracy records and the 300WSM ain't going to set the 1000yd record or win as many times if at all as the old belted cartridges do and it is a belted cartridge that holds the world accuracy at 1000yds.

And I would put my old 358Win one of the first short cartridges and my 7mmSTW a belted cartridge up against any of the new cartridges for accuracy. And we have not even mentioned the 7mm mag and the accuracy of that belted cartridge much less the 300Win mag, the 308 and the 300wby.

New, short, fat don't mean it is better or more accurate. Now I agree with that all those progressive types can just buy away and get what they want and I am glad I live some where that a man can own the rifle and cartridge he likes. But most of the new stuff does not improve anything in practical terms and in some cases are not an improvement at all.

Now a 260, 308, 30-06, 257Wby, 7mm mag, 7mmSTW, 358Win, 300Wby, 375Wby, that I would put up against any of the new cartridges when it comes to accuracy (talking about hunting rifle). I have owned three of the new fat things and don't anymore because they were not faster or more accurate than anything I all ready had. I think I know how to get accuracy and velocity out of a cartridge much less be able to shoot them well.

 

[BuckJM53]

They are playing to the young progressive type that really believe change is better, and new is wonderful and better. I am glad they have new stuff but at the neglect of the already proven stuff is a sore with me.

358Win ... The #1 goal of each and every manufacturer is to stay in business and make a profit. If Ford could have accomplished that by only building the Model T forever, they would have. Realistically however, each manufacturer must strike the difficult balance of keeping their current customer base happy while addressing the needs and desires of the next generation. Some day the gun enthusiasts currently in their 20s and 30s will be bemoaning the fact that the gun manufacturers are building to many new fangled laser guns and not enough of the good old reliable AR-15s (manufacturers that don't stay current simply go away).

 

[358Win]

They are playing to the young progressive type that really believe change is better, and new is wonderful and better. I am glad they have new stuff but at the neglect of the already proven stuff is a sore with me.

358Win ... The #1 goal of each and every manufacturer is to stay in business and make a profit. If Ford could have accomplished that by only building the Model T forever, they would have. Realistically however, each manufacturer must strike the difficult balance of keeping their current customer base happy while addressing the needs and desires of the next generation. Some day the gun enthusiasts currently in their 20s and 30s will be bemoaning the fact that the gun manufacturers are building to many new fangled laser guns and not enough of the good old reliable AR-15s (manufacturers that don't stay current simply go away).

Good point, but what I would like to see would be more attention to the finished product and good craftsmanship no matter what cartridge.

 

[BuckJM53]

Good point, but what I would like to see would be more attention to the finished product and good craftsmanship no matter what cartridge.

I'm fortunate, in that I personally haven't had any QC issues with any of my Rugers and think that they are excellent guns for the price point. Unfortunately, many high volume manufacturers allow the final QC to happen in the field by their customers, and would rather (because it's less expensive) fix or replace a few problem guns under warranty, then to make sure that they are all perfect before they leave the factory. From management's perspective, as long as sending a small percentage of stinkers out doesn't negatively impact the bottom line or the companies long term public perception as it relates to quality, it is an acceptable risk.

 

[358Win]

Good point, but what I would like to see would be more attention to the finished product and good craftsmanship no matter what cartridge.

I'm fortunate, in that I personally haven't had any QC issues with any of my Rugers and think that they are excellent guns for the price point. Unfortunately, many high volume manufacturers allow the final QC to happen in the field by their customers, and would rather (because it's less expensive) fix or replace a few problem guns under warranty, then to make sure that they are all perfect before they leave the factory. From management's perspective, as long as sending a small percentage of stinkers out doesn't negatively impact the bottom line or the companies long term public perception as it relates to quality, it is an acceptable risk.

I have purchased Ruger rifles for the last 28yrs. I have owned 14 rifles and 11 revolvers and never had an issue with any of my Ruger rifles or revolvers. For the money I received a good product.

 

[Con]

358Win,
Look at it this way ... if it was a 375Ruger ... you could have the same rifle and travel the World legally taking any game species in any country that your allowed to hunt in.

The 338WinMag is an excellent medium bore ... but a 35Whelen/9.3x62 is easier to shoot ... and a 375H&H is a legal minimum in some countries for dangerous game. If you limit yourself to Nth America ... then the 35Whelen will still do 90% of the work satisfactorily as will I'd suggest a 30magnum or a 7mmMagnum with premium projectiles.

These days, we generally earn enough to specialise with our rifles ... the capable all-rounder is rarely appreciated.
Cheers...
Con

 

[358Win]

358Win,
Look at it this way ... if it was a 375Ruger ... you could have the same rifle and travel the World legally taking any game species in any country that your allowed to hunt in.

The 338WinMag is an excellent medium bore ... but a 35Whelen/9.3x62 is easier to shoot ... and a 375H&H is a legal minimum in some countries for dangerous game. If you limit yourself to Nth America ... then the 35Whelen will still do 90% of the work satisfactorily as will I'd suggest a 30magnum or a 7mmMagnum with premium projectiles.

These days, we generally earn enough to specialise with our rifles ... the capable all-rounder is rarely appreciated.
Cheers...
Con

I see you point but I do appreciate the all around cartridge like the 30-06 and 338Win Mag. By the way my 375Wby and 416Wby do my work in Africa (Tanzania)

 

[picketpin]

I watched a Nobel Laurette Economst talking the other night. His point with all of this NEW cell phone stuff and internet etc was that as out economey had gotten older the corporations have changed from providing actual NEEDS to producing and advocating WANTS as is they were needs.

Very very few of us actually NEED al these things and gadgets that we have.

I never embrassed many/any of them. The last time my brother, who is a real thechnofobe versus me as me being an unremittent dinasaur is the difference of over $7000 a year of things and products he feels that are critical for his life and that I find unneeded any annoying.

This, the net is the last and whenever I move the next time I will NOT hook up the computer to the net again. But I'm old.

So, marketing people, market. Advertising people advertise and that's where these people feal themselves. So whether they work for HP or Ruger or Microsoft, you r job has very very little to do with anything to do with what customers NEED but rather what can we convince them that the must have to be happy and up to date.

So many of us are perfectly happy with the 30-06 or the 300 Win Mag or the 338 Win Mag but the "new" guys see their role as selling the "new" cartridge to the new buyer and in order to do that they need to design, produce and advertise the newest and latest to the newest and latest people involved in the buying guns.

We, old fart or guys that are really really knowledable understand the basic limits to the product and understand that the short mags or the Ruger Propritory cartridges aren't fundamentally better than the old cases.

The new managem,ent sees their role to sell the NEW product to the new buyer.

I pe4rsonally think it's a fundamentaly losing fight just given the demographics of the society and the ghamges in urban/rural and fewer and fewer hunters and shooters, regardless of what the manufactures do.

I have to admitt that I own a LOT of different cartridges but the newest are the 204 Ruger and the PPCs. They actually fill a very very tiny niche I can load to/for and exploit.

Yes I could buy a 375 and do X, Y and Z with it. On the other hand I already owned a 375 H&H so I NEED a 375 Ruger for??? Once I figured I wasn't really ever go to Africa then I sold off everything bigger than the 338 Win Mag. It'll kill elk, moose and big bears and those are in all likelyhopod the biggest thing I'll ever shoot in the rest of my life so the really big stuff is of no purpose to me. In reality they are of little or no use to the vast majority of US shooters.

If you own one, great but is it really NEEDED for what you do?


RWT

 

[Leucoandro]

I guess that this would not be the place to say I would really like the idea of a Ruger Frontier rifles in 338 federal would it?

It would also be tempting to instead get a Ruger No1 RSI, and then rechamber it for 338-06. That seems more practical to me than the 338 Magnum.



Charlie

 

[TWalker]

I have a Ruger 77 all-weather in 338 Winchester Magnum with a Leupold 3-9 scope. I bought it in the Summer and took it ground hog hunting to shake it out. Quite an awesome outfit, it would take any groundhog I could see if I didn't flinch. I am finally comfortable with it and we are ready for big game season. There is this big black bear that has been hanging around lately that I hope stays a few more weeks.......

 

[Trey Whitley]

I guess that this would not be the place to say I would really like the idea of a Ruger Frontier rifles in 338 federal would it?

Well, maybe. You realize Ruger did make the Frontier in 338 Federal? But if you want one you should try to get one now, since the Frontier has been discontinued in all calibers.

By the way- for most of us, the "re-invent the wheel" argument could be made equally well for the .30-'06 GOV'T. I have bolt action hunting rifles in multiple calibers from 6.5x55 Swedish to .416 Remington magnum (including .338 Winchester), and lever actions in .30 WCF, .30-'03 GOV'T, .32 WS, .33 WCF, .35 Remington, and .45-70 GOV'T. If I had to get rid of all but one, it would come down to my .30-'06.

 

[Canazes9]

I guess that this would not be the place to say I would really like the idea of a Ruger Frontier rifles in 338 federal would it?

It would also be tempting to instead get a Ruger No1 RSI, and then rechamber it for 338-06. That seems more practical to me than the 338 Magnum.



Charlie

I'm glad somebody (besides me!) brought up the 338 Federal. I'm a fan! Not everything new is superfluous!

I love mine...

David

 

[6mmsl]

No question a .338 can handle it all in North America but, you would have a hard time making me part with my 30-06. Smaller, lighter package than a .338 and I can shoot it well. Does a .338 really knock game down harder than the 30-06 at normal ranges? All my elk have dropped quick with a well placed shot from the ol' 06.

I have hunted along side many a friend who carried the larger rifle but as the years went by they all seem to opt for a lighter rig.

I agree there is no need to develop new cartridges that duplicate the performance of the the old standbys.I guess I am just old fashion.

Good shooting, Steve

 

[picketpin]

There is one other aspect to the "NEW" thing. Unless they are successful and by that I meen they become widely avaialable in a variety of rifles, from a wide range of manufacturers and in a wide selection of laods from numerous manufactureers then in the long run you take it in the shorts.

Does the 338 Federal duplicate the 338 Win Mag in a smaller package? Probably. On the other hand it hasn't met the above criteria and I see no indication that it ever will.

Sort of the same thing as the 338-06. That has been around for what , 60 years as a wildcat and they even finally made it a SAAMI standard but even themn it doen't meet the above criteria.

The reality is that withing a wide range of calibers they all pretty much do the same thing. Is there any/a lot if difference between the 243, 6mm 250Savage, 257 Roberts or the 25-06? Fundamentaly they all pretty much do the same things. The difference come when you reload and you look for a specific niche. Same with the medium bores, 270 Win, 280 Rem, 284 Win, 30-06 etc. They all work just fine.

As for the 338 Win Mag. I like it as an elk rifle with HEAVY bullets. Shooting 180s in it makes no sense. A 30-06 with 180s actually has a bullet with a better ballistic coefficient. For me it's shooting BIG bullets, 250 grainers or better at long range.

The 204 made it filling a narrow niche that then became successful enough it has reached to above criteria. Even with that, Ruger has discontinued a bunch of rifles in 204 Ruger. It will however be around for years and years like the 17 Remington doing a very specialized job.

The short mags, whether from Winchester or Remington or Federal or Ruger will have their run. When it's all said and done a few, very few will make it and the rest will languish and disapear.

Wait 10 years and walk into the mom and pop store in say Challis or Bruneau, Idaho and ask for 338 Federal amm o and see what you find. When you ammo gets scarce then advertise your like new 338 Federal and see how many guys line up to buy it.

Just a thought.

RWT

 

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. I have a 338 mag but the 338-06 does 95 percent of what the mag does and does it with less recoil and muzzle blast and uses less powder doing it. In this day of everyone wanting those gimiky short mags a round like the 338-06 doesnt have a chance. If you dont call it a magnum nobody but a real knowlegable shooter wants it. I personly think the 338-06 is probably the most ballanced big game round made.

I guess that this would not be the place to say I would really like the idea of a Ruger Frontier rifles in 338 federal would it?

It would also be tempting to instead get a Ruger No1 RSI, and then rechamber it for 338-06. That seems more practical to me than the 338 Magnum.



Charlie

 

[Canazes9]

Wait 10 years and walk into the mom and pop store in say Challis or Bruneau, Idaho and ask for 338 Federal amm o and see what you find. When you ammo gets scarce then advertise your like new 338 Federal and see how many guys line up to buy it.

Just a thought.

RWT

Picketpin,

I have heard arguments like this before. It strikes me odd that folks that have no problem lauding the benefits of cartridges like the 358win which is pretty much a handload only proposition will tell you that the 338Fed won't be worth owning in 10 years because it will be a reload only proposition.

It's very popular today amongst the internet forum pundits to post that all of the new stuff is worthless, only duplicates existing products and won't be around in 10 years, yada yada yada. I can see their point w/ many of the cartridges - problem is that they become so jaded that when something new and useful does come out they are already in the "it's new and not worth buying" mode before they really look at it.

The 338Federal is not a "short fat mag" and doesn't suffer from the feeding issues that have plaqued these cartridges. What it does offer is performance that slightly exceeds the venerable 358 win w/ a selection of bullets in factory loaded ammunition that provide performance that just isn't available in the 35 caliber.

The recoil isn't punishing even in a light rifle that matches the handling characteristics of the short action cartridge and it offers what the 358win promised but never delivered - strong terminal performance in short easily handling package w/ a wide variety of factory ammunition. While the pundits have proclaimed it's death since it's birth, Ruger and others have quietly been selling quite a few of these rifles and Federal is providing ammunition support that Winchester never provided for the 358win. Federal has actually expanded the factory loadings in recent years proving that they are in this for the long haul - there are now 6 factory loads available for the 338Fed.

As far as being able to walk down to the corner hardware store and pick up ammunition - that argument would limit us all to the 30-30, 30-06, 308, 270, and possible the 7mm mag, 300win mag and 338 win mag. I can't find ammunition for my 7mm-08 at the corner hardware and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. In this day in age you can have ammunition delivered to your door from so many suppliers it will make your head spin. As for the old classics, I own a 30-06 and can't always find my preferred ammunition locally either - I order ammo for it also. Lack of load availability just isn't a problem for me.

If you are limited to only 1 rifle for all of your big game needs, by all means stick to the classics (my vote would be the 30-06) and rest easy. I'm not limited to 1 rifle - I choose to experiment w/ some of the new chamberings as they have come out and enjoy the performance of the few that live up to their billing such as the 338Federal and the 308ME. Life is to short to for me to sit around wringing my hands worrying what will happen tomorrow. If I can't buy factory ammo, I'll start reloading again, buy it from one of the smaller makers (Conley, Stars & Stripes, etc) or get the rifle re-chambered to another caliber. I'll worry about that if it happens - I'm not concerned now.

David